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Newbie: Want new pipes, Is shop being honest?

6K views 55 replies 19 participants last post by  <G Man> 
#1 · (Edited)
Okay, I said when I bought my '13 Super Glide (FXDC) that the pipes were just fine but now I'd really like to replace them with a set of Vance & Hines Short Shots and need to know what's entailed.

My local indie shop says that aside from the pipes I need a... can't remember what he called it but it was something along the lines of a tuner, or modulator or perhaps something like a Fuel Pack, which I'm still not sure what that is for.

He said you can't just slap a new exhaust system and have the bike run perfectly and that it will run way too lean and that the added cost is between $350-$500 (depending on brand, model) on top of the price of the pipes. So does this sound right?

Will quiet baffles change the performance?

Sorry for being such a newbie but I am here to learn from you guys.

JA
 
#2 · (Edited)
I could be wrong but this but this is how I understand this issue.

You can upgrade the AC and not the exhaust-----no tuner needed

You can upgrade the exhaust and not the AC-----no tuner required

If you upgrade both the AC and the exhaust-----tuner is required to correct AF ration.

If you can't afford a tuner you can have a stage 1 tune put on your bike less a tuner at the dealership.

I have also read that the tuner world is BS since the new bikes have O2 sensors and the computer is smart enough over time to adjust.

I don't want to kill my 20K bike so when I do all that I will put a tuner on.
 
#3 ·
The statement thefour said is realistic to me also. So if pipes is only upgrade then no need.. I've purchased the stage 1 download, don't waste your money.. EPA regulates to the dealerships what and how much... If you went with exhaust and intake upgrade then to be on the safe side you need more fuel.. The O2 sensors will compansate some but not all that. On a trip and going from sea level to like 4,000 ft above sea level the O2 sensors can handle.. For just the two upgrades a fuel-pak will work just fine, No dyno needed.. If you have plans on more upgrades then save your money and make the plung for a all round tunner, so much on the market to choose. Some you can tune yourself and some you need a dyno.. You need to start researching tunners and see whats best for you.. A tunner and dyno an average of $1,000.00 .. I've used a fuel-pak and happy with it.. Then same bike no more upgrades and went with a TTS and tune by the best around here in Florida (Doc).. Very little difference. Soo, If you want to go with a cam maybe later then get a good tunner, If no cam upgrade don't waste you $$$ on a high end tunner and tune.. Hope this helps and good luck on your choice...
 
#9 ·
The v&h fuel pak is your best and cheapest option if the only plans you have is upgrading exhaust n air.
While the fuel pak may be a good option, I would think it very rare that there is any one "solution" that is both the cheapest AND the best at the same time.

************************

To the OP, the bike unlikely runs "perfectly" to begin with. It runs very lean just like any other stock factory engine to meet EPA standards. If you do anything to increase airflow (A/C OR pipes, mufflers, baffles, etc.) without adding more fuel to the mix, you will undoubtedly make it run leaner.

As far as running good, bad, perfectly, fast, slow, blah blah blah, those are all just words that mean different things to different people.

Higher AFR = more lean = hotter
Lower AFR = less lean = cooler

If you run it too lean, it may "run great" right up until its untimely demise.

Buy a tuner, get it properly tuned, know the numbers. Anything else is a guessing game.
 
#7 ·
If you change anything . A/c mufflers it needs dialed in.
Will it run ... Yes will it be right no.
The sensors are not magic. They don't dial anything back in .
You will hear a lot of stories of I did this and I did that. It dosent make it right.
I have posted the results on here several times , of what just changing the ac does to Afr . I have also posted leaving the stock a/c on and just a pipe change. Either way it is scary lean.
A stage 1 download is a waste of money , because it is still a EPA approved down load ,that does nothing more than change the timing slightly .
 
#8 ·
@gree: The assbags who write for some of these magazines are not helping matters much. I have yet to read an articular where they didn't make exhaust changes and air cleaner changes and state the ECM would compensate, this is how the average Joe gets his ride screwed up by listening to the magazine idiots.

Folks don't even give it a thought the factory air cleaner is capable of flowing more air if they change the exhaust and allow the engine to move more.
 
#10 ·
Me experience;
Asked the same question here, got told what I wanted to hear and also by the parts seller. Put the mufflers on and you'll be fine, it wasn't.
Turned the right muffler yellow from being lean. At least it didn't hurt the engine.
 
#11 ·
When you change exhaust, air filter or both, airflow through the engine will increase. Therefore, more fuel is needed to compensate for the increased airflow, to keep air/fuel mixture correct. Ultimately, engine changes from stock are made to improve performance. These engines are restricted for epa reasons, to run cleaner. Funny thing is, I usually see a gain in mileage due to engine mods, until I get into the throttle.

For a seat of the pants difference, I would atleast improve the air cleaner & exhaust. Yes, a remap will go hand in hand with this. Later on, if a performance cam, etc. is done, remapping will be required. So, ask yourself, do want to keep paying a shop to remap or buy a tuner upfront and save $ long term?
 
#12 ·
this a look at the actual AFR of a 07 96ci ultra the magic sensors were in operation and AFR was sampled via wide band sensors mounted in the head pipe.
as you can see it is very lean most areas. but there are a few rich spots as well.this why it is important to have it tuned and not just add a fueler that adds % of fuel everywhere.
the stock air cleaner was on the bike,and the exhaust was a V&H propipe 2-1 added. the sampling was with the factory ECM untouched.
thats why you tune them :)





this is what it ended up with
the lower power is the way it was with the stock ECM
the next higher is with the stock A/C and tuned.
and without the a/c it made 4 more hp
 
#17 ·
No I'm just paying attention to the situation which the question was asked. The guy is saying he doesn't want to have to do a ton of extras and pretty much just has pipes in mind. Taking that in account I think my option is up his alley. Oh yeah I could recommend ways to spend thousands but but it doesn't sound like that is what he's interested in. So here it is option $200 some v&h pak bike runs great or option $1000 + bike prolly runs exactly the same but you get boner saying what you did extra


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#18 ·
If you add a set of pipes that doesn't affect the bike enough to require a different tune,or it's still within the table of the stock ECM,guess what? it isn't affecting the performance of the bike and is therefor a waste of money.

IF on the other hand,the pipe you put on signifigantly effects the air flow,you HAVE to richen the fuel/air mixture somehow.Same as in the carb days.Wth the EPA regs,the stock ECM is running on the very edge of lean,and has very very limited ability to adjust.
 
#20 · (Edited)
My experiance with Air and exhaust up grade are this, Had a fuel pak and ran fine, then keeped reading post's like this and went and did the TTS with a good tunner, Doc, here in Florida, I couldn't tell the difference. Not knoking Doc's tune.. Unless you do a cam then your wasting a $1,000 dollars on a tunner and tune.. Just go with the fuel pak if all your doing is the Air and exhaust up grade..
 
#21 ·
Custom means just that....do some research and find what works best for you and the set up you want. I changed from stock to "the perfect storm" kit from Kuryakyn, came with everything I needed including a tuner. I'm sure some peeps won't care for my set up, but I like it; it sounds good and looks good. Seems to run a bit better as well and was affordable. I have quite a few riding buddies whom all have different brands and set ups everything from Rush to V&H. Next stop for me will be some Cam work. Finding a good reputable shop with a trusted wrench is important! Sounds like yours is on the up and up, but as always, do your own research first. Enjoy the ride!
 
#29 ·
Having worked for a very long time in the design/construction industry (where this is quite evident) it always has and still does amaze me how much money people spend trying to save money. :whistle:
 
#32 · (Edited)
you know what ? it very well may:beer:
honestly. I have never had a fuel pak that came in without a running problem. so I dont know of anyone that has one that works good. I have had three guys bring bikes to be that had there bike tuned well enough that I couldn't really justify the dyno tune. none were with a fuel pak. but yours could be my first.:beer:
one was a Cobra tuner on Durwoods 95 build. it was fine AFR wise everywhere. I could only gain 5 hp over his homegrown tune. he says 4 HP:clap: only reason I got anymore out of it was with timing. Durwood is a drag racer/crew chief and took his daughter to a national title and local track point championships.
Another was a engineer with a power commander. I actually called him 30-40 min into the tune,(before he got to far away) it was so close AFR wise I couldn't live with myself if I didn't tell him. I picked up 5 hp with timing on his also. the only reason he said go ahead and tune it was because it had a little vibration at 2200-2500 rpms.
and honestly I couldn't fix that either. he only lives about 75 miles away so we spent the afternoon one day trying to get it out. (I never could feel it) but we tried everything ,and he could feel a slight vibration. it still had 8 deg injectors in it (06) but the only thing we could figure out was it was just when the cams came on (Andrews 21) . very maticalious guy (but I understand :))
third guy is rich . from this forum. he is a v tuner with a tts tuner.
and a very good wrench. I think I picked up 7 hp and 10 tq on that one . wide open throttle was rich 10.5 ish getting that to 12.8 ish and a little timing picked it up a some
but it ran pretty damn good in the areas he could collect data.
if I knew of someone that mastered a fuel pak I would sure mention it. :beer:
 
#31 ·
I kinda think that doing JUST a fuel pak, air cleaner and pipes leaves so much on the table. A cam (to me) is the biggest bang for the buck item. When you pair it with the Pipes, A/C, and a tuner, THEN YOU HAVE SOMETHING. Save your money and CRY ONCE. Smog/emissions cams suck. They hold back everything.
Do what Stroker says...but add in a cam too the program....
Tim
 
#35 ·
There are three elements to the discussion:
1. Price
2. Quality
3. Performance

The problem is a guy on a budget doesn't realize that you cannot cut a corner and realize the same results. In spite of all of the contentions that fuel pak and other "cheaper" alternative work just fine, as Jim points out few of those bikes ever see a dyno to back up the butt dyno results. I am betting though it "runs fine" there are quirks related to ridability and timing curves do not match fuel delivery.

On both of my bikes I did my homework and proceeded with the project. I did the bikes as reasonably as I could be the reality is quality performance work that produces results comes with a price tag. My 2010 street glide stage II 103 work came in pretty close to $3000 installed and tuned including the price of a D&D Fatcat. My 2006 Street Bob SE 120R project came in somewhere between $8500 and $9000 by the time I bought the parts, had them installed and tuned. The performance and ridability of both bikes makes the price extremely worth while.

As to the OP's question, there are exhausts out there designed to be installed without any tuning required. D&D Boss Fatcat is advertised as one of those exhausts. The problem is that late model tunes from the factory are exceedingly lean. Fuel Paks and other piggy back style of tuners are just band aides on a problem that needs surgery (flash tuner and proper mapping) to cure.
 
#37 ·
I'm a guy who puts pipes, stage one a/c and fuel pak and that's the extent of it. My bike is a 103 and rips. Good enough. I have other interest and young kids so I'm lucky to be able to fit a new HD in budget. Hell pipes n ac and fuel pak cost bout $1200 and for now that's my reach. Cams and other upgrade are super cool but we'll have to come later on in life.


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#38 ·
I get where Stroker and all the others are coming from but, The Q's was about needing a tuner for pipes. Yes would have work just fine. From there it should have been if he wasn't going to do any other Mod's V&H or something close will work fine but there is better, and if he was going to do cams, heads or other work later, Then V&H problley won't be the best choice. SEST Ect. would be best to buy straight out. I have already been that route A/C, Pipes, V&H/ Then Cams, Heads SEST, I should have just bought the SE tuner first and saved the money to pay for the head work. Thanks for the Info Stroker
 
#43 · (Edited)
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