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Old 01-13-2013, 08:04 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Exhaust?

I'm in the process of replacing my OEM exhaust, stage 1 air and adding a power commander to my 2013 Touring. So far, I had enough funds to replaced my factory exhaust with the Rinehart true duals. Couple of questions:
1. Do I need the stage 1 and the power commander with a proper map before taking the bike for a ride?
2. Can I ride with the new exhaust set up without adding a power commander (only) and a proper map to accommodate the new exhaust?
3. Will factory ECU adjust to my new exhaust?
4. Will any damage be done to my bike if I ride it with the new exhaust only without changing the air intake and adding a power commander with corresponding maps?
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Old 01-13-2013, 08:59 AM   #2 (permalink)
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The correct answer is, yes, you should remap the ECM after any modifications to the intake or exhaust.

The other answer is your're usually fine with just a pipe change. An entire exhaust change including the headers especially if the CAT is removed would move you closer to a remap. Throw in the stage 1 intake and a remap is highly recommended.

A Power Commander remap is a crap shoot. Usually you depend on canned maps that may not match your setup exactly, so the results are not optimum and the seat of the pants (SOP) results aren't worth the $$ spent for the mods.

True duals use to have dyno documented reputation for losing low end torque. The look and sound cool, but the performance sucks. 2-1's, although the sound changes have the best performance history.

Honestly, it you are looking for more power, the best investment is head work, possibly bore, bump the compression, 2-1, improved intake and a something like a TTS MasterTune for ECM management.

Otherwise, leave it alone and spend your cash on gas and motel rooms and ride the $hit out of it.
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Old 01-14-2013, 06:43 AM   #3 (permalink)
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Exhaust ?

I little confused now. Back in January of 2012, Fuel Moto published an article in Hot Bikes Magazine where they took a 2012 Street Glide and replaced the exhaust with their Jackpot stainless steel 2/1/2 head pipes and Jackpot 4-inch Touring Mufflers. They also replaced the OEM air intake with their Moto Stage-1 Air Cleaner and the Power Commander Power Vision EFI tuner (with a preconfigured Fuel Moto map). The numbers on the dyno went from max power of 65.34 to max power of 80.28 and max torque of 78.16 to max torque of 94.41. I'm new to the Harley game but I'd be more then happy with these results.
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Old 01-14-2013, 07:16 AM   #4 (permalink)
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I would just say, consider the source of the article and search V-Twin forum and ask lots of questions. Just say'n...
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Old 01-14-2013, 02:56 PM   #5 (permalink)
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I was told I'd be fine with just pipes, it wasn't. Muffler turned yellow from being lean.
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Old 01-14-2013, 03:06 PM   #6 (permalink)
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I replaced my exhaust with 2 into 1 with a baffle, left the stock a/c and after about 100 miles, the pipes started to turn blue. I have since added the power commander v and richened it up a bit. I plan to change the a/c and add the auto tune for the power commander at the same time.
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Old 01-15-2013, 06:53 AM   #7 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by plongson View Post
I would just say, consider the source of the article and search V-Twin forum and ask lots of questions. Just say'n...
Like I said before, I'm new to the Harley game and I appreciate all the pointers that I can get form the members on this forum. But are you saying that the dyno numbers were some how fabricated? The article was written by one of the Hot Bikes staff writers. He was visiting Fuel Moto and was there while they did the conversion project. He observed the dyno tests prior and after the conversion. I'm not saying that Fuel Moto set up is the only game in town nor I defend their results. But I did search the forum and since there are numerous combination set ups, if you ask 100 people you'll get 95 different answers. Most of the responses are based on the trial and error experience. I know that all if this is based on how crazy you want to get and how much money you want to spend but how can one decide which one to go with?
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Old 01-15-2013, 09:30 AM   #8 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by buzz742 View Post
I'm in the process of replacing my OEM exhaust, stage 1 air and adding a power commander to my 2013 Touring. So far, I had enough funds to replaced my factory exhaust with the Rinehart true duals. Couple of questions:
1. Do I need the stage 1 and the power commander with a proper map before taking the bike for a ride?
2. Can I ride with the new exhaust set up without adding a power commander (only) and a proper map to accommodate the new exhaust?
3. Will factory ECU adjust to my new exhaust?
4. Will any damage be done to my bike if I ride it with the new exhaust only without changing the air intake and adding a power commander with corresponding maps?
Quote:
Originally Posted by buzz742 View Post
I little confused now. Back in January of 2012, Fuel Moto published an article in Hot Bikes Magazine where they took a 2012 Street Glide and replaced the exhaust with their Jackpot stainless steel 2/1/2 head pipes and Jackpot 4-inch Touring Mufflers. They also replaced the OEM air intake with their Moto Stage-1 Air Cleaner and the Power Commander Power Vision EFI tuner (with a preconfigured Fuel Moto map). The numbers on the dyno went from max power of 65.34 to max power of 80.28 and max torque of 78.16 to max torque of 94.41. I'm new to the Harley game but I'd be more then happy with these results.
Quote:
Originally Posted by buzz742 View Post
Like I said before, I'm new to the Harley game and I appreciate all the pointers that I can get form the members on this forum. But are you saying that the dyno numbers were some how fabricated? The article was written by one of the Hot Bikes staff writers. He was visiting Fuel Moto and was there while they did the conversion project. He observed the dyno tests prior and after the conversion. I'm not saying that Fuel Moto set up is the only game in town nor I defend their results. But I did search the forum and since there are numerous combination set ups, if you ask 100 people you'll get 95 different answers. Most of the responses are based on the trial and error experience. I know that all if this is based on how crazy you want to get and how much money you want to spend but how can one decide which one to go with?
I think the key is to read between the lines on the advice you read. First of all, if the ECU were capable of adjusting to modifications, then why would there even be a Stage 1 download available?

In general, the Power Commander will override whatever settings are currently in the ECU to achieve the results, so stock ECU or Stage 1 download will make no difference if you have the PC.

I'm sure the results you read about the Fuel Moto modification were real numbers. I might question how they achieved those numbers. Their deal is that they do the dyno work to develop maps for many different combinations of components and make those maps available to customers. If you have a setup exactly like what they developed for, you will get optimum results. If you have a similar setup, you will get good but less than optimum results. I would guess that they did not use a "preconfigured map" but one that they created on the dyno.

One more thing to consider is that while everyone likes to brag about dyno sheets, HP and TQ is only part of what tuning is about. Yes, you should see good numbers if your bike is running well, but the most important one to me is the one you would read on a temperature gauge, not the dyno sheet. A lean setup may give you better HP numbers but also more heat.

Your question about "damage" is kind of tricky. Think of it as possibly reducing life span instead of "damage".
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Old 01-15-2013, 09:32 AM   #9 (permalink)
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You will probally be just fine with the Exhaust swap...
But if you want it done right and on a $30k toy I would. You should have a tuner. I would do exhaust, Air cleaner and tuner then Get it Dyno tuned. Running to lean or rich can cause damage maybe not today or tomorrow but it will eventually.

Now with the dyno numbers from feul moto..That just what they are, NUMBERS. A good dyno increase doesnt do much if its not comming on at the right RPM, or if the air/feul mixture isnt perfect My old 95" did 100hp and 103tq but riding 2 up at 3k rpm it was a pig. jump to 4800rpm by myself and it was kicking azz.. not much good for a bagger though.

If your not planing on doing major mods for performance then pick which ever exhaust you like the looks and sound of. The performance differance in a stock bike from one exhasut to another wont be that much. So go for what you like. Just get it properly tuned and you will be happy.







Quote:
Originally Posted by buzz742 View Post
Like I said before, I'm new to the Harley game and I appreciate all the pointers that I can get form the members on this forum. But are you saying that the dyno numbers were some how fabricated? The article was written by one of the Hot Bikes staff writers. He was visiting Fuel Moto and was there while they did the conversion project. He observed the dyno tests prior and after the conversion. I'm not saying that Fuel Moto set up is the only game in town nor I defend their results. But I did search the forum and since there are numerous combination set ups, if you ask 100 people you'll get 95 different answers. Most of the responses are based on the trial and error experience. I know that all if this is based on how crazy you want to get and how much money you want to spend but how can one decide which one to go with?
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Old 01-15-2013, 10:54 AM   #10 (permalink)
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just make sure it ain't running lean. after changing pipes recommend a download for those specific pipes. if you're changing the air filter, definitely recommend the download for the pipes. harleys come from the factory running lean, the download just richens it up a bit. bottom line, change the pipes and air filter, get the stage 1 download and you'll be ok, start changing cams and such, have it tuned professionally. run a tuner on my scoot just so I don't have to change any setup when I change to higher elevations. tuner does it for me or I can program it manually.
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Old 01-15-2013, 02:59 PM   #11 (permalink)
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What I understand in the Stage I is that the download is still lean for a stage I.

This is what I did with my new bike and I'm very happy.
2012 Ultra Limited, basically the same as what you have.

Talked to Fuel moto, bought V&H Pro-pipe, thier high flow air cleaner, PCV with auto tune. Jamie installed the download. Runs perfect.

I got the auto tune since knowing myself the way I do, mods will come. Like the TW222 cam kit Fuel moto sells, and they will send me a new map that my auto tune will enhance.
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SE Air cleaner
SERT
Fatcat Quiet baffle
Bagger brace
Dyno report; http://www.v-twinforum.com/forums/dr...et-baffle.html




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