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Old 01-03-2013, 01:13 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Newbie: Want new pipes, Is shop being honest?

Okay, I said when I bought my '13 Super Glide (FXDC) that the pipes were just fine but now I'd really like to replace them with a set of Vance & Hines Short Shots and need to know what's entailed.

My local indie shop says that aside from the pipes I need a... can't remember what he called it but it was something along the lines of a tuner, or modulator or perhaps something like a Fuel Pack, which I'm still not sure what that is for.

He said you can't just slap a new exhaust system and have the bike run perfectly and that it will run way too lean and that the added cost is between $350-$500 (depending on brand, model) on top of the price of the pipes. So does this sound right?

Will quiet baffles change the performance?

Sorry for being such a newbie but I am here to learn from you guys.

JA

Last edited by John Adams; 01-03-2013 at 01:20 AM.
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Old 01-03-2013, 05:18 AM   #2 (permalink)
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I could be wrong but this but this is how I understand this issue.

You can upgrade the AC and not the exhaust-----no tuner needed

You can upgrade the exhaust and not the AC-----no tuner required

If you upgrade both the AC and the exhaust-----tuner is required to correct AF ration.

If you can't afford a tuner you can have a stage 1 tune put on your bike less a tuner at the dealership.

I have also read that the tuner world is BS since the new bikes have O2 sensors and the computer is smart enough over time to adjust.

I don't want to kill my 20K bike so when I do all that I will put a tuner on.

Last edited by thefour; 01-03-2013 at 06:21 AM.
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Old 01-03-2013, 06:30 AM   #3 (permalink)
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The statement thefour said is realistic to me also. So if pipes is only upgrade then no need.. I've purchased the stage 1 download, don't waste your money.. EPA regulates to the dealerships what and how much... If you went with exhaust and intake upgrade then to be on the safe side you need more fuel.. The O2 sensors will compansate some but not all that. On a trip and going from sea level to like 4,000 ft above sea level the O2 sensors can handle.. For just the two upgrades a fuel-pak will work just fine, No dyno needed.. If you have plans on more upgrades then save your money and make the plung for a all round tunner, so much on the market to choose. Some you can tune yourself and some you need a dyno.. You need to start researching tunners and see whats best for you.. A tunner and dyno an average of $1,000.00 .. I've used a fuel-pak and happy with it.. Then same bike no more upgrades and went with a TTS and tune by the best around here in Florida (Doc).. Very little difference. Soo, If you want to go with a cam maybe later then get a good tunner, If no cam upgrade don't waste you $$$ on a high end tunner and tune.. Hope this helps and good luck on your choice...
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Old 01-03-2013, 06:51 AM   #4 (permalink)
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I have 2012 I put v&h short shots on had to upgrade to stage 1 ac and v&h fuel pak. Bike runs great


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Old 01-03-2013, 06:56 AM   #5 (permalink)
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The v&h fuel pak is your best and cheapest option if the only plans you have is upgrading exhaust n air.


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Old 01-03-2013, 10:47 AM   #6 (permalink)
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Your shop is being honest from what I can tell. V&H short shots are a great choice. I concur with 'Blacklinebrett' go with the V&H fuel pak.
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Old 01-03-2013, 02:32 PM   #7 (permalink)
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If you change anything . A/c mufflers it needs dialed in.
Will it run ... Yes will it be right no.
The sensors are not magic. They don't dial anything back in .
You will hear a lot of stories of I did this and I did that. It dosent make it right.
I have posted the results on here several times , of what just changing the ac does to Afr . I have also posted leaving the stock a/c on and just a pipe change. Either way it is scary lean.
A stage 1 download is a waste of money , because it is still a EPA approved down load ,that does nothing more than change the timing slightly .
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Old 01-03-2013, 02:58 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by strokerjlk View Post
If you change anything . A/c mufflers it needs dialed in.
Will it run ... Yes will it be right no.
The sensors are not magic. They don't dial anything back in .
You will hear a lot of stories of I did this and I did that. It dosent make it right.
I have posted the results on here several times , of what just changing the ac does to Afr . I have also posted leaving the stock a/c on and just a pipe change. Either way it is scary lean.
A stage 1 download is a waste of money , because it is still a EPA approved down load ,that does nothing more than change the timing slightly .

The assbags who write for some of these magazines are not helping matters much. I have yet to read an articular where they didn't make exhaust changes and air cleaner changes and state the ECM would compensate, this is how the average Joe gets his ride screwed up by listening to the magazine idiots.

Folks don't even give it a thought the factory air cleaner is capable of flowing more air if they change the exhaust and allow the engine to move more.
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Old 01-03-2013, 03:24 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Blacklinebrett View Post
The v&h fuel pak is your best and cheapest option if the only plans you have is upgrading exhaust n air.
While the fuel pak may be a good option, I would think it very rare that there is any one "solution" that is both the cheapest AND the best at the same time.

************************

To the OP, the bike unlikely runs "perfectly" to begin with. It runs very lean just like any other stock factory engine to meet EPA standards. If you do anything to increase airflow (A/C OR pipes, mufflers, baffles, etc.) without adding more fuel to the mix, you will undoubtedly make it run leaner.

As far as running good, bad, perfectly, fast, slow, blah blah blah, those are all just words that mean different things to different people.

Higher AFR = more lean = hotter
Lower AFR = less lean = cooler

If you run it too lean, it may "run great" right up until its untimely demise.

Buy a tuner, get it properly tuned, know the numbers. Anything else is a guessing game.
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Old 01-03-2013, 06:07 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Me experience;
Asked the same question here, got told what I wanted to hear and also by the parts seller. Put the mufflers on and you'll be fine, it wasn't.
Turned the right muffler yellow from being lean. At least it didn't hurt the engine.
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Old 01-03-2013, 06:27 PM   #11 (permalink)
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When you change exhaust, air filter or both, airflow through the engine will increase. Therefore, more fuel is needed to compensate for the increased airflow, to keep air/fuel mixture correct. Ultimately, engine changes from stock are made to improve performance. These engines are restricted for epa reasons, to run cleaner. Funny thing is, I usually see a gain in mileage due to engine mods, until I get into the throttle.

For a seat of the pants difference, I would atleast improve the air cleaner & exhaust. Yes, a remap will go hand in hand with this. Later on, if a performance cam, etc. is done, remapping will be required. So, ask yourself, do want to keep paying a shop to remap or buy a tuner upfront and save $ long term?
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Old 01-03-2013, 06:58 PM   #12 (permalink)
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this a look at the actual AFR of a 07 96ci ultra the magic sensors were in operation and AFR was sampled via wide band sensors mounted in the head pipe.
as you can see it is very lean most areas. but there are a few rich spots as well.this why it is important to have it tuned and not just add a fueler that adds % of fuel everywhere.
the stock air cleaner was on the bike,and the exhaust was a V&H propipe 2-1 added. the sampling was with the factory ECM untouched.
thats why you tune them





this is what it ended up with
the lower power is the way it was with the stock ECM
the next higher is with the stock A/C and tuned.
and without the a/c it made 4 more hp
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Old 01-03-2013, 08:11 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Trust me if you only want to upgrade to stage one just due ac pipes and v&h fuel pak. Just did it bike runs awesome . You only need to spend money on a commander or SE tuner plus cost of dyno test if you are going to do major upgrades


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Old 01-03-2013, 09:05 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blacklinebrett View Post
Trust me if you only want to upgrade to stage one just due ac pipes and v&h fuel pak. Just did it bike runs awesome . You only need to spend money on a commander or SE tuner plus cost of dyno test if you are going to do major upgrades


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Old 01-03-2013, 09:14 PM   #15 (permalink)
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I give up
Don't do that, just focus your efforts where they are appreciated.

Besides, you heard it, he did it and it runs "great". What more info could you ask for?
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