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At 61k, '97 Evo ready to blow

13K views 66 replies 17 participants last post by  redsflht 
#1 · (Edited)
Have some questions for the Evo brain trust here.

This is my 50th year riding Harley's. I've had my '97 FXDWG since 10k mis., and she is the real me.....lots of TLC & customization in her.

She's ready to blow in spite of my many years of TLC, regular Amsoil oil changes, and not being ridden hard.

"Shoosh, shoosh, shoosh..." sound developed in bottom end about 2k mis. ago. Pulled S&S lifters, breather gear, they looked like new, as did the Andrews EV-27 cam (& Torrington bearing) I put in in '09 at 44k mis. Put in new S&S pushrods, all quieted down - for a while. Then the low-end "shoosh - shoosh..." started to come back.

Then a top end knock developed, only detectable at light loads, not at idle or high RPM in neutral. Got louder. Had local indy Harley shop test ride her - they delivered it back to me with the knock 10x louder with engine sounding like it would throw a rod or blow at any second. Did they do it? Who knows - I wouldn't have ridden it to them if it had been that bad. So I trailered the bike home and am prepared to tear the Evo down, expecting a complete rebuild, top and bottom.

While I did occasionally wind the WG to it's full 6 grand (SE ignition) occasionally, it was rare - and I've ridden this baby easy for all of it's life. Never had a well-cared-for engine fail with this few miles.

1. Is this typical of an Evo with these miles?
2. I'm expecting a minimum of new pistons, rods, connecting rod bearings, re-bore. Hope crank isn't damaged. Experts thoughts?
3. Concerned about metal parts blocking oil passageways & main bearings. Should I be?

Any and all input/feedback is appreciated.

Oh, I'm an experienced car/truck/bike mechanic and have my own shop - but am not a professional. Done top-end rebuilds, but never done bottom end.......

TIA

GN
 
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#4 ·
Y2k - thanks - "typical" was the wrong word to use - I meant, is this known to happen in Evo's, because if so, I've not heard it.....

Arkmark - great tip - just the kind of details I want before rebuilding.....thanks. So this is a point of failure from lack of oil? Was that what you found? What else did you find?

BTW, as with all my bikes, I have the full original Shop Manual.......
 
#5 ·
For myself, instead of rebuilding your rods/crank, just buy a new S&S one and be done with it all at once. You can also purchase an assembler kit with most/all of the stuff you'll need to rebuild it from S&S too. Very handy to have also.

And not typical at all to me. I have a friend who is on his 3rd replacement motor in his 87 glide and he buys new ones from the factory once he hits 100k on them. All of them are stock motors too.

Griz
 
#6 · (Edited)
Gritz -

Thanks. You are not the first one to suggest just going to an S&S, assuming you mean the whole engine. But I'm having a hard time justifying putting $7 grand in an 18 year old bike.

If you were not refering to a whole new S&S motor, please clarify.......I'll see if I can find "Assembler Kit" - that sounds interesting......

Yes, thinking of the HD rebuld for $3k - except I'd have to go without my Andrews cam unitl the warranty was out......right?

PS: I have a son who has a '10 Softail Custom that he bought new, 7k miles, and as his 2nd child just arrived, he's wanting to sell it - totally stock. I'm sure he'd give me a good deal on it, but I'd be starting from scratch in customizing it.......
 
#7 ·
#8 ·
The upside of the HD rebuild is you get to keep your VIN and get a brand new evo for about the price of the rebuild. Down side is you're getting a evo with factory parts. If you're happy with the 80", nothing wrong with doing the re-man, personally id rebuild with the S&S internals at the least.

You say this bike is you. You love it, what's another couple grand? You'll spend more than that getting that twin cam where you want it, and it'll still never be the same.

Just my .02
 
#11 ·
Don't drop the EVO for the newer twincam! Do a quick math on all the Parts you would like to customise The TC with.. Exhaust, paint, seat, handlebars, tuning, chrome stuff.. You'll be happy to keep the EVO.

Btw, didn't S&S have a reman prog too? Believe it Was 3-4000 and you could go for performance upgrade.
 
#13 ·
Thanks for all the thoughts guys - all good points. Thinking low end S&S plus 89" S&S kit at this point. Could I keep my original carb (Dyno Thunderslide Jet Kit), Andrews EV-27 cam and not have to pay S&S for the carb & cam? I am more than content with my engine's performance now. Yeah, I'd have to put larger jets in the carb for the '89" and re-tune.......

Yes, modifying son's softail would cost a fortune......I've got V&H Big Radius on the WG now, not the SE slip-ons.......

Checking pricing on alternatives now......
 
#23 ·
T

Yes, modifying son's softail would cost a fortune......I've got V&H Big Radius on the WG now, not the SE slip-ons.......

......
How much you got in your bike? Bigger is better in my opinion.

Another problem with Harley engine is it is EPA compliant. I personally would not do this.

Even if you bought the TC, you would have to do something with your bike or part it out. So I'd lean to rebuilding with better parts.

Also keep in mind your stock engine failed you. Do you want to just put another in?
 
#16 ·
Saved last oil filter to do just that, but been too busy to get to it. Did notice some metal dust on oil plug at last change at 60k that concerned me - no flakes, just dust. But first time it has shown up.

I agree. I need to find cause. No, haven't checked oil pressure with good gauge - kind of afraid to now - just running the engine enough to heat it up might cause it to blow......
 
#15 ·
HD factory rebuild program = gone. No longer exists.

Someone said EVO's typically go 100k, but high compression stresses connecting rods on both ends......???? OTH, 60k failures are not that uncommon.....
 
#17 ·
Interesting. :hmmm:

They still have a link for remanufacturing on their web site, but it leads here. http://www.harley-davidson.com/content/h-d/en_US/home/owners/engines/remanufacturing.html

A search for "harley davidson reman" retrieves this, still on their web server. https://www.harley-davidson.com/en_US/Media/downloads/Engines/engine_reman_broch.pdf

So this must be a recent development I suppose.

I heard a couple years back that they had passed on the work for the EVO remans to S&S. I got a HD EVO reman a few years back which was apparently near the end of the run actually done by HD. At the time, it seemed like a good and reasonable option to bring an unknown used motor back to a good starting point. I have been very happy with my purchase.

That's too bad if they have really done away with the program all together.
 
#18 ·
G Man - I should have added that I got this directly from my dealer on the phone this AM.......a recent change for sure.....
 
#26 ·
Guys - again, I put in an Andrews EV-27 cam & Torrington cam bearing about 44k, and the cam is perfect for my riding. It's a Stage II bike already. Actually it's as fast as I want now - I just figured if I'm pulling it apart, might as well improve on it.

So are you saying and SE upgrade on the 10:1, or S&S?

Oh, put on an oil pressure guage & checked oil pressure today - right on specs. That's not the problem.

Now - to pull the heads & cylinders.

Oh, looking at my factory shop manual, it looks like the original crankpin has two oil holes......a '97 - is this correct?
 
#27 ·
Running stock heads, I'd go with the SE version from HD as they are pretty much designed to just drop in and go..

You can get by with knocking the glaze off of the cylinders with a hone and dropping in the new slugs as is if they aren't scored.Usually evo still have the hatch marks on the insides at that mileage.

Griz
 
#28 ·
Griz -

Great ideal. Do you have to retard the timing to prevent pre-detonation with the 10:1 compression?????

GN
 
#29 ·
I get pretty good fuel around here as a rule so you don't really have to worry about it. Everything is big bore that I own and they are turned back a tad to adjust for the stroke of the motors, but I run 'em at fuill advance from there. All in on my 113" evo at 32 degrees and I run the 96" the same.

Griz
 
#30 ·
How do I check the bottom end for issues once I get the cylinders off without pulling the engine and opening the bottom?

Major issues with connecting rods and the bearing set would be detectable, but what about bearing issues that may not be obvious?

I have had a low-end sound that is very subtle for some time, and certainly don't want to rebuild the top end and leave issues in the bottom end........

How often are the main bearings an issue at 60k mis.?

TIA,

GN
 
#31 ·
Only thing outside of splitting the cases to look is to do up/down and side to side tests on the rods once you pull the cylinders. I guess they still put that info in the manuals these days like they did in the 70's scoot books..

Essentially you get very little side to side and zero up/down play on the rods. Anything over an 1/8th side to side gets rebuilt as a rule, but I have run 'em way longer on the shovel when money was tight..

Subtle sounds in the bottom end are usually nothing to worry about and probably is more primary related than rods. No guarantee on that though.

Griz
 
#32 ·
Griz -

Thanks! Exactly what I was looking for. I was thinking along the same lines exactly, only I would have been concerned if there were even 1/8" side-to-side movement on the rods.

I have yet to read that far in the shop manual, but will check it soon to see if it gives specifics.

One of the subtle low-end sounds seems to actually be slightly to the rear of the bike behind the camshaft - say 4" - a very "only the owner can detect it" "shoosh-shoosh-shoosh" at the camshaft speed, not the crankshaft speed. Cam is fine, tappets are almost new S&S, tappet blocks within new specs. Noise is NOT in cam area, but toward tranny.
 
#42 ·
Griz -

Zero side-to-side on female, and about 3/64" on male. Problem is the 1/32" up & down play on the male at the crankpin........
 
#34 ·
Been sick, Griz....serious sinus infection......just now getting better....

You lost me on the male and female connecting rods. ???????
 
#36 ·
I was thinking the rods were side-by-side with a bushing between them. I knew they shared the same journal (crank pin) and bearing.

Seems strange engineering and that there would be more wear/friction, etc. with the male/female arrangement. Looking closely, in my factory Parts Catalog on Page 12, it looks like they are side-by-side with a bushing in between them (24345-36A). The male/female arrangement sure isn't clear on the drawing.
 
#38 ·
I was thinking the rods were side-by-side with a bushing between them. .
You would have to offset the cylinders instead of them being in line with each other that way. If you think this is odd, check out a radial engine sometimes. Looks like an old knuck motor on steroids.

The three sets of bearings spread out the load very well and let these things do over 200k on them if treated right.

Griz
 
#37 ·
It is a strange setup it it has a forked rod that straddles the front rod, 3 sets of bearings on the crankpin.. With a bronze thrust washer on each side between the rods and flywheels. The first time I took one apart it was very strange, coming from big block V8's in car motors, it was a learning curve. Lol
Check the wristpin bushings closely for wear, the clearance spec is less than .001". It sounds like your motor is pretty solid, provided the lower end checks out.
 
#39 ·
Ok, guys. Top end's off, and here's the scoop.

Top end is fine. All looks good. Not what I was expecting. Zero lash in piston pins. Rings fine, pistons & cylinders fine. Some carbon build up. Valves look good. Good news, but the problem is the front connecting rod.

Rear connecting rod (female) has zero lash in all directions. Front connecting rod (male) has just less than 1/8" side-to-side but a terrible 1/32" up and down on the crankpin.

So a bottom-end rebuild is unavoidable. Just hoping nothing else shows up when she's opened up.

My question is, what in the world would cause the front rod to wear so much with zero evidence of wear on the rear? Ok, it's obvious the rear will wear less with it's two attachment points (vs. one on the front rod) than the front - but this much difference?

Is this a common problem at 60k miles? Any ideas of a cause?
 
#41 ·
Doin' fine Scrubs. How are you?

Never left the Forum, just not much to post until my Wide Glide broke. Miss her.

Puttin' the miles on my SE Road Glide tho - about 500 in last 2 weeks. Gotta ride whenever weather is good these days.

How's your scoot doin' ?
 
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