This is my 50th year riding Harley's. I've had my '97 FXDWG since 10k mis., and she is the real me.....lots of TLC & customization in her.
She's ready to blow in spite of my many years of TLC, regular Amsoil oil changes, and not being ridden hard.
"Shoosh, shoosh, shoosh..." sound developed in bottom end about 2k mis. ago. Pulled S&S lifters, breather gear, they looked like new, as did the Andrews EV-27 cam (& Torrington bearing) I put in in '09 at 44k mis. Put in new S&S pushrods, all quieted down - for a while. Then the low-end "shoosh - shoosh..." started to come back.
Then a top end knock developed, only detectable at light loads, not at idle or high RPM in neutral. Got louder. Had local indy Harley shop test ride her - they delivered it back to me with the knock 10x louder with engine sounding like it would throw a rod or blow at any second. Did they do it? Who knows - I wouldn't have ridden it to them if it had been that bad. So I trailered the bike home and am prepared to tear the Evo down, expecting a complete rebuild, top and bottom.
While I did occasionally wind the WG to it's full 6 grand (SE ignition) occasionally, it was rare - and I've ridden this baby easy for all of it's life. Never had a well-cared-for engine fail with this few miles.
1. Is this typical of an Evo with these miles?
2. I'm expecting a minimum of new pistons, rods, connecting rod bearings, re-bore. Hope crank isn't damaged. Experts thoughts?
3. Concerned about metal parts blocking oil passageways & main bearings. Should I be?
Any and all input/feedback is appreciated.
Oh, I'm an experienced car/truck/bike mechanic and have my own shop - but am not a professional. Done top-end rebuilds, but never done bottom end.......
Since you have something else to ride, send notes to everyone for Christmas presents as in gift cards or camshafts.. LOL..
Seriously, the SE heads are about $800 a set. Might find some S&S ones cheaper and then do S&S pistons to match.
Check around as it might be cheaper to buy a complete S&S rod/crank set than to rebuild the old rods with a new crank pin/bearings and getting it fitted.
You can pull apart the entire bottom end and take it in for them to do the lower end stuff, but have 'em stop after pressing on the left side going back together and do the rest yourself for free and save the beer money.
I forget what bike it is going into, but lots of good cam choices to look at.
Ha! Good suggestion on the Christmas presents. Love the Andrews EV-27 I already have in it plus lots of other parts. S&S Quickie Chrome Moly pushrods, S&S lifters, SE ignition, and more.
I think I could get the SE heads & pistons for 20% off, but will definitely check the S&S heads and pistons tool
On the S&S rod & crank set, at $1,135, I'm wondering if rebuilding mine wouldn't be much cheaper......???? Fairly sure my rear connecting rod is a keeper.
Bike is '97 Wide Glide with thousands of dollars of mods, almost all done by me. Love the bike - it's the real me & fits me like a custom-made glove. Had her since 10k miles. 4th set of handlebars and seats to find what fits......
I have the SE heads on my 80" Evo FXR4. They are part of the complete Harley SE stage III kit which is on my bike. They are designed to go perfectly with the SE 10.5:1 pistons and SE 57 cam. Along with a few other bits the result is 95 hp. They are already clearanced to go with the 57 cam for lift and they have the nice springs. 35k on my engine and no problems. I like the power characteristics of the engine. Up to about 3000rpm a stocker is just as fast but after that the SE quickly pulls away. Just about the strongest non stroker FXR I've come across.
A friend of mine put SE heads (along with a PC and "street" cam, whatever that is...) on big TC stroker (117ci) and it showed 134hp on a dyno. Yes, I like the SE stuff.
The SE kit is on page 75 of the 2012 Harley-Davidson Screamin' Eagle Pro Racing Parts catalog.
Spent an hour on phone with a machinist that's been rebuilding Harley engines and building race engines for 15 years. Learned a lot, good price on low end rebuild. He suggested that a tight rear connecting rod and loose front one could be the result of timing that has been too advanced. While I've never checked the timing (my bad - but the bike's always run incredibly and never had any symptoms of pre-detonation), any other signs indicating pre-ignition are absent.
Then spent over an hour with probably the best Harley mind in Virginia - Lee, owner of Departure Bike Works - a nationally known & respected Harley shop and bike builders since the '70's.
Lee agreed that my current Andrews EV-27 is the best cam for my bike and riding style - BUT that adding either SE or S&S high compression pistons & heads would cause major problems with this cam. Too much to describe here, but basically would make starting almost impossible in cool weather due to loss of overlap on the cam.
Lee strongly advised that if I am satisfied with how my Evo runs now, I should stick with stock pistons & heads, and increase the compression a bit by just installing a thinner head gasket.
As is this bike spins my head on full throttle in 1st & 2nd gears, I really don't need a Stage III engine.
Departure's price on rebuilding my bottom end was higher than the independent builder, but they have a solid reputation and my inclination is to go with them. I have friends they've done complete engine rebuilds for and all were great. And their shop is empty right now and they could do the work in a few days.
Not adding the high compression heads & pistons reduces my expected costs significantly which is good these days since cash is short.........
This is looking more and more like a total engine rebuild. With more and more unknowns once they get the bottom opened up.
With an almost 20 year old bike, would I be better off just purchasing a new S&S Evo 80" engine if I can get one at a discounted price?
While this will cost more, it seems like it would be a.) less risk and b.) a better long-term investment since I plan on keeping the bike as long as I can stay up on 2 wheels. Wouldn't the added value of a new S&S more than pay for the added cost?
Friend & fellow H.O.G. member Dr. Bruce Heilman, former President of the University of Richmond, PhD., a WWII Marine, who had his first Harley in 1939, is still riding his Ultra all across the country at 88 years old. I'll be glad if I can keep riding to 78!
Shucks. My dad didn't need diapers until he was 91....and then he refused to wear them! Tough WWII vet........
I am planning on riding into my 80's (be 70 soon - and I still ride hard.....), and stay in as good a shape as I can so that will be possible.....of course, it's greatly beyond my control......
When I said rebuild the crank I meant a new crank pin and fit the rods to it. About $200-250 or buy a set new of just the rods and crank pin. About $350 or so like that in a kit.
As for the 80" S&S motor, I'd say yes if the price is right. And keep the stock one to fix when ya got the coin if selling it down the road is an option. Or build it as you have time/money and swap the S&S out later for the newly built, non-stock, stocker.
Rebuild the rods, new crank pin, new sprocket shaft and new pinion shaft. About $500 total so far. Either go 10: 1 pistons or go with a shorter gasket if that's all you want and see what that adds up to. $200 =/_ on the slugs and it's already bored at .005 I think. Gaskets for $65 or so.. $800- 1000 and you're set.
Griz
And pay better attention to the timing on this one.. LOL..
A couple points: I don't feel qualified to do a bottom end rebuild myself. I haven't gone through my factory shop manual to check and see what's involved, but aren't special factory tools necessary? Top ends I've done, with a good machine shop doing the cylinders & heads of course. Would you trust a novice to do the bottom?
I can get the S&S Evo w/no carb or ignition for about $3,900.00. If I put one in, I'd probably keep it in, but then rebuilding the original engine isn't a bad idea.
Actually, I'm pretty sure the timing wasn't off. I think it was too lean a main jet. But you can be sure I'll check it when/if I get the engine rebuilt.
But I never had indications of it running lean on the spark plugs.
What size main should I be running with: original carb, Dyno Thunderslide Jet kit, SE breather, Vance & Hines Big Radius pipes?
What ya normally do is tear it all down until you're left with the left case half attached to the sprocket shaft and the flywheels in your hands. Take that into the machine shop with the new shafts ( I use new ones ) and a new crank pin. Tell em to hone the rods to fit the new crank pin (oversized bearings for this) and press it back onto the left case when they have it done. Then you put the right case half on and put it back together on your own. Have them check the wrist pin bushings on the rods also..
Get a price for this and see what you think about rebuilding it..
Then you're just looking at new slugs for the jugs and wrench time to get it running. Maybe clean up the valves a bit also while the heads are off.
Will be way cheaper than the new motor and you'll learn all kinds of stuff. And lots of it will be about yourself in the process of it all.
Griz
And just for the record.. It was a complete rebuild when you stated the rods had up/down movement on them. You can do this if you want..
Griz is right. I would still buy stroker flywheels and just replace the old one with the stroker wheels while they are apart. All you will be paying for are the wheels since the labor will be the same. Something ro think about. 4.5-4.625 makes great torque at low speeds.
Departure is telling me that if I go with the high compression heads & pistons that the engine will not start in cool weather without installing compression release due to the valve timing on the Andrews EV-27 cam.
And that it will be hard to start even in warm weather. I think they should know as this is one of their fav cams to install.
They said if I'm satisfied with my current performance - I am - to keep the heads and pistons stock.
Departure is willing to do the bottom end for me, bore the cylinders, match pistons, redo heads for a not-too-bad price - much less than a complete rebuild - so I'm going with that. I'll take them the engine......just need to remove crankcase from frame & primary....
Not a job I'd want to do on a dresser. Replacing fork seals and re-building the forks on my WG was a piece of cake.......glad to see PO had installed Progressive springs when it was lowered......
I ended up taking the bike to Departure and letting them do everything - took it in in early January and it was ready in a month, but due to other issues I didn't get the bike back until April 6th.
Runs like a dream. I've been strictly following the S&S guidelines for breaking in a rebuilt engine with one added detail......I put in a new oil filter with about 120 miles on the engine - highly recommended by some of the best mechanics I know.
Changed oil & filter at 500 miles. She's now at 1,300 miles past rebuild, and has never run stronger. Still keeping RPM below 4,000, not loading engine, varying speed, and nothing over about 1/3 throttle.
One new noise does concern me. I had them put in a new S&S metal breather gear, and the noise is coming from that area. Nothing I've ever heard before, and is most noticeable when the engine first runs and is cold. Departure initially said it was just the cam & lifters, but I don't buy that as the sound was never there before, and I kept the same Andrews EV-27 cam and S&S lifters with about 6k mis. on them. It's a continuous noise, not a knocking.
Is this common with the S&S metal breather gear? Or could the gear have been mis-matched for the cam & pinion gear set? Parts Manual shows no less than 7 different cam/pinion gear sets for the EVO.......
I'm going to drop the bike off at Departure and let them hear it when it's cold and see what they say. Their guarantee on the engine is 90 days, so I'm covered through July 5th.
You might check with them on their installing a later breather gear (77-99) over an earlier breather gear, as they are different. I would think it would be a whine noise in that regard though.
I change oil at 50 miles, 100 miles and 500 miles on new motors. Then again at 1500 and run 'em for about 3000 until I swap it again.