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Old 12-06-2012, 12:30 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Ghost in the machine


Well guys my Cherry is trying to serve me up Pits...

97 FXD 80ci all stock with exception of V&H straightshots.

Stored in controlled environment for some period of time unknown to me prior to purchase, had a complete servicing done all cable and linkage adjustments, wheel bearings and seals , primary gasket replaced, all fluids flushed and replaced, steering stem bearings ..on and on.
Clutch, and Primary gear, checked and adjusted....the whole nine, everything to get it road ready, and make sure it had all new juices to do it with...First thing....I fired it up, Nice ! smooth idle after it's cold nature got me off the enricher, smooth as silk between 950-1050 rpm's

I took it up the road for about a 7 mile run No Hot Rodding just warming it up some getting the oil to flow nothing really above 3000rpms.

got it back to the garage parked it, wiped the too F*in common bird urine off one of the mirrors, and went inside with a grin...

Next morning out to garage to fire it up, start hearing a slight slap pop from the exhaust on the rear cylinder....hmmm tapped the throttle a couple of times seemed to rev smooth ,then idle back to slap pop....decided to shut it down, and it ended with a sound I wouldn't want to hear from a 50's Maytag washer, it was kind of a Screech Squeal Combo right as it came to rest,as if it seized right there on the spot...

Being in the garage I couldn't tell exactly where it came from, it sounded like the front cylinder, it was definitely a metal noise, not a whine, not a whir, not a clack, not a tick,but a screech to a halt. I feared it wouldn't start again, but after making absolutely sure all fluids were up to level, rolled it outside to fire it again, it popped right off, smooth as silk again, I road it up and down my road 1/4 mile Nothing not a sound other than the expected sewing machine mechanics, and rumble, I get it back to the garage to scratch my head.... let it sit for about 2 hours thinking, came back to fire it again, and the God Awful Ghost was back at very low idle around 750 you could faintly hear hear it comming from what appeared to be the front cylinder, but without a stethoscope, I can't be sure it could have reverberated up from the cam case.

It has come and gone twice more out of 5 times idled ,and I was off to the Dealership puzzled, now they can't get it to make the noise at all, they did drain the oil, and said it was real black,

So my question is 97 fxd 80ci stock with 10K actual that sit for who knows how long at a time is scorching oil quick,and has an on again off again metal screech at super low rpm's and most notably when it comes to a rest on shut off, Dealership is going for tappet screen next, if that results in nothing where do I blow my money next...I feel like Lenard Nemoy in Search Of, only I don't have PBS funding either, so I would like to narrow this search down quick,and thought nothing beats mysteries like experience, and I was hoping someone has had this experience and could relate how I can cut down my bill and fix this at the same time...

Thanks in advance guys, I'm lost here..I don't know whether to instruct them to go to the cam chest and remove all plastic, or do a leak down to hunt for an escapee..any help would be appreciated.
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Old 12-06-2012, 07:54 PM   #2 (permalink)
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could be a lifter going bad makes a hell'ive noise'
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Old 12-06-2012, 08:12 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Thermodyne is reading this now saying WTF is this? Thermodyne is reading this now saying WTF is this?
First place to look is the cam chest. Bad tappet roller or perhaps a cam bearing issue.
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Old 12-06-2012, 08:56 PM   #4 (permalink)
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A compression test and a leak down test will determine the condition of the engine. The next important test is to make sure the oil is circulating properly. These are the basic tests for any engine. If done correctly they will reveal whatever is going on.
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Old 12-06-2012, 09:59 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Halloo. All good responses fer sure dude. As far as the oil, any motor that has sat for a length of time, controlled environment or no, or really, just about any motor with any miles, the oil can become black looking after several miles of running or just from starting and stopping in the garage. As to the noise, like the guys said....but....kinda funny you sayin' it's comin' and goin'. Have a similar (in that it is comin' and goin') with Angel and I am placing the ignition as a likely suspect; not advancing or not retarding at the right times. Do not like electronics. But, does seem like you might have something goin' on in the cam chest area, for sure.

C........
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Old 12-06-2012, 10:18 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Elusive Ghost Update

Tappet screen totally clean, oil very black even though fresh with 7 miles on it, Compression test came back @ 132 & 128 psi, Sound still not being re produced in the shop either at cold start or through warm up idle.Dealership is going to double check oil filter, to make sure it's a 10 and not a 30 micron tc88 filter, then cut open filter to further check for indicators ,brass, steel, plastic, etc. also the BIke only has 10,800 miles on it.

My worry is that with all this tinkering around the edges looking for the direction to go next, and starting and stopping the thing over and over, it's gonna lead to a catastrophic engine failure before they find the problem.

The best way I could describe this noise is to say, it's the same sound you would expect to hear in a completely dry cylinder right before it seized, a loud ass eagle screech to a halt . what could cause an intermittent total oil stoppage to the top end .

If Tappet screen is clean,and filter shows no obvious Debris when cut apart,where would be the next best place to find evidence of metal to metal friction debris...

I guess what I'm wondering is should I have them open the cam case, to look for debris, scored or galled cam, broken INA bearing sleve, toothless plastic breather gear, etc. ? Or do I have them open the top end to look there, because truthfully I couldn't tell where the sound came from it was a reverberating loud screech to a halt, could've sent the sound up from the cam, or in the front cylinder itself but it was loud....

Thanks again guys for any help and suggestions you might have, I'm at a loss here, but I will post the results of the filter autopsy , etc,

It's been a long time since Ive been to the dealership to get work done, they want approval for washing their hands next to the Bike , I felt like they were asking me as a family member to sign off on surgery on somebody's Grandpa.....ie: this is gonna be spensive..#@$)&*^%#% and stuff......Thanks again for any ideas

Last edited by Isolutionary; 12-06-2012 at 10:24 PM.
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Old 12-07-2012, 10:27 AM   #7 (permalink)
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Thermodyne is reading this now saying WTF is this? Thermodyne is reading this now saying WTF is this?
Pull the lifters. Check the rollers. It's prolly the most common internal Evo failure. If the lifters are good, take a look at the inner cam bearing.

As to the color of the oil, don't worry about it. You can't drain all of the oil in the system, so the only way to have it look clean would be to repeatedly change it several times one after the other.
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Old 12-07-2012, 02:45 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thermodyne View Post
Pull the lifters. Check the rollers. It's prolly the most common internal Evo failure. If the lifters are good, take a look at the inner cam bearing.

As to the color of the oil, don't worry about it. You can't drain all of the oil in the system, so the only way to have it look clean would be to repeatedly change it several times one after the other.
Yep.... my EVO had a screech like you describe. Turned out to be the cam bearing.

You won't be wasting money replacing it even if you find it wasn't your problem. It shouldn't cost that much more to pull the cam after they have it down far enough to get to the lifters.

They use a cheap caged bearing at the factory. Get a good Timken replacement with wall to wall rollers in there before it spins in the case and you have real problems.
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Old 12-08-2012, 11:33 AM   #9 (permalink)
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Ghost eludes further

The filter was correct,and showed no signs of ferrous materials, The Primary was taken apart and inspected,just to check torque specs, gaskets seals, etc. clean as a baby's butt.
The Boxes come apart this weekend , working from the top down....I think I'm gonna be sick.....Dealership closed on Monday so If I don't hear anything by close of biz today, it will be Tue. Thanks again Guys for all your suggestions, I guess we're finally gonna see what we'll see....will keep you posted, barring a nervous breakdown that leads to a hoarded Twinkie overdose doesn't take hold......
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Old 12-13-2012, 05:23 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Ghost Update
Tuesday came and went and I heard nothing from anybody, same with Wednesday, then today I get a call from the dealership saying they checked the lifters,etc. and opened the cam chest to check bearings, gears, cam etc. and say they found NOTHING, they are gonna reassemble and test drive tomorrow, but they have not been able to re-create the noise, and say they found nothing,that leads them to anything that could have caused the noise....NOW I"M NOT CRAZY, this thing screeched to a halt 3 different times in front of 2 witnesses, and at slow idle a mild screech in what appeared to be the front cylinder, and the best they came up with is the oil was a little dark.....

Now I'm out of my league here, but could this be a crank shaft thing ?
I'm just asking because I'm at a loss now.......I do believe in ghosts, I do believe in ghosts, I do I do I do I really do .......Pi**ed & confused
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Old 12-13-2012, 07:28 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Deleted double post

Last edited by Dan89FLSTC; 12-13-2012 at 08:16 PM.
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Old 12-13-2012, 07:32 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Without hearing the noise it is hard to do much more than make educated guesses, so, assuming that the noise is not a loose part vibrating, such as exhaust system, fuel tanks etc...here is my so called educated guess:

Get back in the primary and check that the compensator and clutch hub are secure.

After you check the torque, untorque them and remove the compensator and clutch.

Inspect the compensator ramps and sprocket.

Pull the alternator rotor and inspect it for damage, you could have a loose magnet.

Inspect the alternator stator, check that the mount screws are secure.

Remove the clutch plates and discs from the clutch and spin the clutch to make sure the bearing runs smooth.

Check the torque on the front belt pulley, then remove the pulley, then the spacer, the big oil seal and the quad seal that goes underneath the pulley spacer. Have a look at the big ball bearing that is underneath the oil seal. Inspect the spacer.

Re assemble with new pulley spacer, quad seal, oil seals and pulley lock bolts.

Last edited by Dan89FLSTC; 12-13-2012 at 08:26 PM.
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Old 12-13-2012, 07:38 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Halloo. A big plus one to what Dan just wrote. Comp sprockets can make some WEIRD freakin' noises when they start goin' bad.

C......
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Old 12-17-2012, 06:02 PM   #14 (permalink)
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The Ghost Search Terminated

Well, the Dealership having what I assumed was carte Blanche, to seek until they find, has chosen somehow to show what appears on the surface to be constraint, I'm really confused now. a dealership that tells me, there is NO PROBLEM they can find, and that all this bike needs is for me to Ride IT !
They stated that it was as clean as a baby's butt inside and out, and there was nothing that they could find anywhere that would show an issue that needed addressed, they of course couldn't get it to make the noise again ,under any circumstances.
They took it apart, said the cam, lifters, rocker shafts,crank breather had no signs of wear, nothing irregular I mean,they switched out the INA bearing for me while they were in there, but nothing ?, the oil pump was clean, the tappet screen clean, oil pressure tested pretty good for a 97 EVO IMHO 17psi @ Idle and 21psi @ 2000rpm.
After all that,their head wrench said this is one clean a** motor, were gonna button it all back up and give it a 15 mile test ride and barring nothing there, which they said they didn't expect, that all this Bike Needed was for me to Ride IT !!!

Well the 15 mile test drive was as they predicted smooth as silk, no undue vibrations everything like candy, they even commented to that fact, to say "Man you got one sweet A** ride" it runs great, this thing has no problems at all.....

So here I stand with 2 major abnormalities, 1. a dealership who wouldn't take more money to look for something they didn't believe was an issue, and me with a noise that won't re-create out of my presence, no one could explain or discover the cause of.

I now have the bike back and am going for a Ride tomorrow.....weather permitting, and we'll see what we'll see.....but I'll be worrying about that noise until something occurs of an obvious nature that would explain it, I hope that doesn't end with me as ground round, but I'm gonna have to believe somebody sometime as far as it's condition is concerned, and this dealership had no dog in the hunt, so I have to believe if there was even the slightest chance they would find something as long as they knew the bill was being paid then why not look...
So until the ride....I have nothing.....If anybody comes up with any explanation, even a far fetched one, as to how such an awful noise could be made after a long journey locked to a pallet on a truck, and then just vanish as if it never happened ...I would love to hear it......I'll post ride results soon
Thanks all for the help
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Old 01-18-2013, 05:21 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Isolutionary View Post
The Ghost Search Terminated

Well, the Dealership having what I assumed was carte Blanche, to seek until they find, has chosen somehow to show what appears on the surface to be constraint, I'm really confused now. a dealership that tells me, there is NO PROBLEM they can find, and that all this bike needs is for me to Ride IT !
They stated that it was as clean as a baby's butt inside and out, and there was nothing that they could find anywhere that would show an issue that needed addressed, they of course couldn't get it to make the noise again ,under any circumstances.
They took it apart, said the cam, lifters, rocker shafts,crank breather had no signs of wear, nothing irregular I mean,they switched out the INA bearing for me while they were in there, but nothing ?, the oil pump was clean, the tappet screen clean, oil pressure tested pretty good for a 97 EVO IMHO 17psi @ Idle and 21psi @ 2000rpm.
After all that,their head wrench said this is one clean a** motor, were gonna button it all back up and give it a 15 mile test ride and barring nothing there, which they said they didn't expect, that all this Bike Needed was for me to Ride IT !!!

Well the 15 mile test drive was as they predicted smooth as silk, no undue vibrations everything like candy, they even commented to that fact, to say "Man you got one sweet A** ride" it runs great, this thing has no problems at all.....

So here I stand with 2 major abnormalities, 1. a dealership who wouldn't take more money to look for something they didn't believe was an issue, and me with a noise that won't re-create out of my presence, no one could explain or discover the cause of.

I now have the bike back and am going for a Ride tomorrow.....weather permitting, and we'll see what we'll see.....but I'll be worrying about that noise until something occurs of an obvious nature that would explain it, I hope that doesn't end with me as ground round, but I'm gonna have to believe somebody sometime as far as it's condition is concerned, and this dealership had no dog in the hunt, so I have to believe if there was even the slightest chance they would find something as long as they knew the bill was being paid then why not look...
So until the ride....I have nothing.....If anybody comes up with any explanation, even a far fetched one, as to how such an awful noise could be made after a long journey locked to a pallet on a truck, and then just vanish as if it never happened ...I would love to hear it......I'll post ride results soon
Thanks all for the help
Anything new to report.
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