No timing set on EFI Evo? : V-Twin Forum: Harley Davidson Forums

any4xx · 08-25-2009, 07:15 PM

I've got a '98 FLTRI. To me, it seems down on power. The fact that I can run regular gas on a 115 degree day and lug the crap out of it without any pinging tells me I don't have enough timing in it. Or am I out to lunch here? The only engine mods are an Andrews EV27 cam and Wiseco 10:1 forged pistons.

So anyway, I break out the service manual and proceed to check the timing. First I discover that it is an impossible task without the clear timing cover, so that is on order. But I went ahead and screwed with the clocking of the timing plate just to see what it would do. And it did NOTHING. I went as far as to completely remove the studs and turn the thing as far as I could in both directions and it did nothing to the engine speed. So I'm assuming that the engine computer only wants a signal form that plate and does ALL of the timing adjustment??? I have a PC-III USB and I know I can alter the timing from that, but I would have thought that rotating the timing plate would have done SOMETHING.

Any thoughts?

1997bagger · 08-25-2009, 10:39 PM

Quote:

I've got a '98 FLTRI. To me, it seems down on power. The fact that I can run regular gas on a 115 degree day and lug the crap out of it without any pinging tells me I don't have enough timing in it. Or am I out to lunch here? The only engine mods are an Andrews EV27 cam and Wiseco 10:1 forged pistons.

It is possible your overfueled causing low power and not able to make it detonate, an EV27 (36 intake closing) and 10:1 should be easy to make detonate.

On the timing plate, moving the plate 1/8" clockwise made a difference in timing on mine, I had problems with detonation (high ccp) at roll-on and controled it with a 12.8 afr but was at the edge of overfueling, moved the plate and able to tune to 13.5 or 13.2 afr and finally had consistant power without detonation.

Moving the plate made a difference on mine but it is a bandaid repair until I remove some compression but I think you have an afr problem and would head in that direction and use the plate as a last resort.

any4xx · 08-26-2009, 12:39 AM

I had it dyno-tuned at sea level at 13.8. I'm at 6,000' now, but I can't imagine that the altitude here could richen it even a full point. I'm sure there is a way to figure the A/F ratio change at various elevations, but I sure don't know how.

Dr.Hess · 08-26-2009, 05:12 PM

If you had it tuned at 0 ft and you're at 6K ft now, yeah, that's your problem. It appears that the HD EFI system is fairly stoopid on setting the base MAP level for baro correction (which I kinda doubt is in there at all). At altitude, I have no problem outrunning twinkies, and I suspect that's why. A tuned twinky has trouble staying up with the Sporty at high altitudes, but runs real strong down where it was dyno'ed. My wife's Megasquirted Sportster has dual MAP sensors with baro correction.

any4xx · 08-26-2009, 05:54 PM

Yeah. I called Dynojet this morning and got the scoop. It's as easy as reducing all the map cell values by the same percentage. I knocked 15% off of everything and it seems to run fine now. Early HD fuel injection is ALMOST as good as a carburetor.

Still waiting to hear if someone knows about the timing issue.

Dr.Hess · 08-26-2009, 06:50 PM

I'm not familiar with your particular setup, but:

1. You don't need a clear timing plug to check the timing. You just set the bike upright, remove the steel plug from the case and expect to get some oil mist blown out. Not a lot, but enough to wear eye protection and not have your car parked next to it when you have it running.

2. If your EFI system has a idle speed valve, that will likely be controlled by the computer so that if you are fiddling with the ignition timing, the computer could be fiddling with the idle valve to keep the speed the same.

3. Set the timing where it's supposed to be and don't F with it. Fix your fuel maps for your altitude, which you seem to have a handle on.

1997bagger · 08-27-2009, 11:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr.Hess

3. Set the timing where it's supposed to be and don't F with it. Fix your fuel maps for your altitude, which you seem to have a handle on.

I was trying to be suttle about the timing plate movement but this paragraph is what I was thinking.

any4xx · 08-27-2009, 01:09 PM

Well as it turns out, the plate IS set in the fixed position by design and has no effect on ignition timing on the FI models. I dug farther back into the service manual and found it referenced in the FI section instead of the ignition timing section. So if the FI guys WANTED to alter timing, they (we) would have to do it through the Power Commander anyway, as there's no way to alter timing except through computer manipulation. But now that I've got my A/F ratio dialed in by the SOTP method, the bike is running well.

any4xx · 08-27-2009, 01:10 PM

Oh, and Dr. Hess: What's a "Twinkie?"

Beemervet · 08-27-2009, 03:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by any4xx

What's a "Twinkie?"

It's a term of affection used for any Twin Cam engined bike.

Otto · 08-27-2009, 08:47 PM

the cam sensor on a magnetti evo just tell the efi which cylinder is on compression timing is done off the crank just like a TC the only way to change timing is with your pc or tuning software

1997bagger · 08-28-2009, 11:49 AM

My timing retard is maxxed with a PC3 and have some roll on detonation, turned the plate 1/8" counterclockwise and it rattled so bad I turned around, moved it to center and 1/8" clockwise and could remove fuel and add some timing in areas.
Otto, I respect anything you do, moving the plate did help me out.

Otto · 09-02-2009, 02:05 AM

but if your timer plate on a efi evo is in the slots and not in the 2 holes it is incorrectly installed and causing the system to run in a default setting. depending on which timer cup it has installed.

1997bagger · 09-03-2009, 11:03 PM

Uni-bit, origional 2 holes.

Otto, I understand what you are saying, Chevy 5.7, solid distibuter set on #8 and ecm takes over timing.

Maybe the ecm cannot change the timing enough (retarded) with the cam sensor backed off. The ecm could be in default mode but no noticable performance problem.

I have a Wego 3 with DA logging and the plate move is the best it has ever run and achieving 13.5 roll on for the first time without detonation. I will pull the heads this winter and relieve some air out of it for the correct repair.

Otto, I understand Diesel and Automotive ecm's and their parameters (27 year diesel tech). Educating me on Harley ecm's won't offend me, you learn by listening and making mistakes.