Hello fellow forum members....I posted this same question on the HDForums and would like to get y'alls opinion too. I've read that this oil has the same high temp film strength as 20-50 oil does, so with that in mind and the fact that it seems to be used by many metric riders whose oil also lubes the trannny with good results due to it's high shear strength, I wanted to hear from Harley riders who have used this oil and what their results were, especially in the warmer months. It would seem that this oil would be excellent for use in our big twins (mine's an evo) especially since there are no gears to shear it down. No need for a synthetic vs dino debate as I have used Amsoil for a few years with no complaint...'cept the price...doing once a year changes, but was thinking that this oil would be good for at least 2,500 miles and that more frequent changes with it may be just as well overall ??? So, tell it like it is......
ah, what? For oil, "warm" and "thick" are sorta opposite ends of the spectrum. As the oil warms it move from being thick (cold) to thin. And yes the pressure lowers as it warms and thins...
For the conversionally challanged amoungst us, 140*C is 284*F (per my iPaq).
ah, what? For oil, "warm" and "thick" are sorta opposite ends of the spectrum. As the oil warms it move from being thick (cold) to thin. And yes the pressure lowers as it warms and thins...
Thanks. That what i mean to say, oil is thick when cold making pressure high and pressure drops when it gets thin. would the fact that its only 40 weight and not 50 contribute to the top end noise im hearing. I know several on here have use 15-40 w/ no problems but i dont want to chance it. thoughts?
would the fact that its only 40 weight and not 50 contribute to the top end noise im hearing. I know several on here have use 15-40 w/ no problems but i dont want to chance it. thoughts?
no personal experience, but I have see comments about 40 weight causing noise. However, I have also seen comments about moving from one brand of 20W-50 to another reducing noise (from Syn3 to AMSOIL, if'n I recall correctly). -- So it appears alot has to do with each individual engine.
If you live/drive in a hot area like New Mexico then a 40 weight would probably be dicey. I don't beleive upstate NY gets quite that hot, but that's where your engine's unique needs come into play.
If you have top end noise and are running 15W-40, moving up to 50 weight would be a reasonable step.
If it's a new bike, I beleive that 15W-40 is not in accordance with the warranty, and could result in grief if needing repairs...
I don't understand why people use a different viscosity than what the OEM recommends? You would think they (H-D) would have researched this long enough to know what works and if they don't say 15W-40, then assume its not the best to use.
Whats so hard about that? The price of these are not worth gambling on 4 qts of oil. Use 20W-50 and keep on riding.
As it happens they do say in the owners and shop manual for my '08 that 15w40 diesel oil is an acceptable replacement if you can't find HD360 or Syn3. Realistcally if you live in a cooler climate the 15w40 would be the better choice, it flows better when cold and circulates through the engine faster when hot so it would draw away more heat.
I wouldn't use it in a hotter climate but up north in the winter I think it's fine, probably a better choice than most.
I think the thing you have to be careful of is the Ash content (Detergent)-I have been associated with Heavy Equipment Diesels most of my life, and IH (International Harvester) was so concerned in the 50's and 60's about Oil Technology (and it's causes and effects) that they bought their own Oil Company!
They were the first to increase Ash, due to the fact that Diesels cannot contain the combustion process as well as a Gas engine, so they increased the Ash content of the Oil. One thing they found was that increased Ash content (above 1.0%) would leave deposits on the Exhaust Valves leading to failure of the Valves. Due to that fact they introduced an Oil that had all of the charicteristics of Diesel Oil without the high Ash content.
The rule used to be that any Oil under 1.0% Ash was a Gas Engine Oil and that Diesel Engines like the Ash content atound 1.4%+-
I found this blurb on the Rotella Forum (from the Rotella Tech Expert there)-
"One negative might be where the engine manufacturer recommends oil meeting JASO requirements, which limits ash content to 1.2%. Ash content of ROTELLA T Multigrade exceeds this limit."
I can't find how Harley views this Spec, so all I can say is, buyer beware-
All I know is that I broke in my 107" a buds 103" and anothers 95" on this stuff up til they all hit 1000 miles and then switched to Mobil 1 15-50 Syn. None had any problems of scoring, compressing loss, ring seal, leakdown, or any of that.
My 107 went 5500 miles trouble free until I shifted the flywheels. Pistons and cylinders are perfect.
103 has 8K w/ no problems to date.
95 has 13K of the hardest miles imagineable and still runs great.
Only negative thing I can say is it's only 40W and gets a little thin when the temps get up. Good spring/fall oil up here in NY but 50W is mandatory for the summer heat.
This is a qoute from an article I read online about synthetic oil.
"Harley recommends a 20w-50 oil, so Rotella or other synthetic diesel oils will not do. However, the 15w-40 diesel oils meet the same film strength standard as 20w-50 oil, and are just fine to run in your Harley"
Yep Harley Glenn, that's one of the articles that I had read that got me to start this thread! I have yet to run the 15-40 in temps over the mid 80's but it did fine when I did use it...as a matter of fact, I just did my "end of year" maintenance and put Castrol diesel GTX 15-40 in with a dose of AutoRX to make sure everything stays clean...that'll probably be in the Evo til spring comes around...gotta run it a thousand miles and then do a thousand mile rinse phase and I'm thinking of using a 15-40 for that as well.
I ran Havoline 20-50 this summer and my evo engine performed as well as it always has...but it only stayed in for 3K miles. In the past, I ran the Amsoil to between 5 and 6K but for my cost to benefit ratio I determined it would be better to change out the dino oil twice to the Amsoil's once a year routine. If I was running a twin cam I think I'd stay with the Amsoil due to the extra heat they generate...at least in the summer months anyway...well, ok, if you're gonna have it in during the summer, you might as well run it all year to get your money's worth out of it! Otherwise, I'd be changing out the dino between 2 and 2.5K miles depending on the temperature I was riding in.
My big interest in the 15-40 diesel oils (Rotella, in particular) was that they seem to be highly regarded when ran in even larger displacement engines (with shared transmissions) than my evo...plus H-D recommends it's use "if their oil isn't available" .... plus I've read that it doesn't shear as much (or maybe as fast) as a 20-50 dino oil and has a very good additive package .... all in all, going by what I've read and seen thus far, I think a good 15-40 diesel engine oil may just be the toughest "dino" engine oil around! I guess I really just wondered if it could take the heat of my evo being it was "only" a 40 weight and wondered if any other evo riders had used it in hot weather...you know, looking for support from other Harley riders here! Looks like I'll just have to test it for myself during a summer of riding....
Yep, I'll have to say, my evolution engine has done me good so far :woohoo:I just want to keep it that way!
I’ve been riding for 40 years and have owned 17 bikes. I’ve always used petroleum based oil, and have never had any oil related issues. I have nothing but my own experience to base my judgment on, but personally I think synthetic oil is overrated, and overpriced. Today’s petroleum based oils do a great job of protecting our prized internal combustion engines, including the large bore air cooled ones we love so much, providing we change it as often (most of us including myself do it more often) as required by the owner’s manual. For example, I currently ride a 1994 FLHTCU, and had it out in South Dakota last year 2 weeks prior to the big Sturgis event. I had HD 20w-50 petroleum based oil in it, and drove around in 100 degree weather the entire week. The day we (my wife was on the back) visited Devils Tower it got up to 115, and although the engine was putting out some extra heat, it didn’t ping, or tick or do anything that made me think I needed to pull over and give it a rest. When I checked the oil the next morning it looked fine, and wasn’t low. What more could you ask for? Well, this Rotella thing perked my interest so I guess I’m going to give it a try. Harley’s not going to tell us that we can use it instead of their brand because they’re not dumb, but by saying it can be used as a substitute until we can get the HD stuff again says volumes.
Your 94 engine runs a lot cooler than the TC88 or TC96 EFI engines of today do. so dino oil would be fine. But the TC96 regularly hits 280*F and dino oils start to oxidize at 250*F so synthetics are a better choice for the new engines.
I am an Amsoil Dealer in the Jackson, MS area - we have a guy here that is highly regarded in high performance HD engines as well as other race oriented engines. He has been a proponent of Rotella 15 W40 oil in the engines he builds and works on.
After talking with him at length and showing him technical information on Amsoil, he decided to try some in his 2009 Screaming Eagle Road Glide. Before doing so he did three dyno runs with the Rotella and then did three dyno runs with the Amsoil Dominator 15W 50 in the engine and Amsoil Severe Gear 75 W110 in the transmission.
The dyno showed an approx. 3 - 4 hp increase in HP and a 5 -6 ft lb increase in torque and approx 3 mph increase in top end.
After seeing these results he is now an Amsoil Dealer. He liked it so much he became a dealer.
Larry thanks for posting this. I know the story on this as I had a meeting with Larry last week and what is most interesting about this is the engine builder wanted Amsoil to fail and for Larry to go down the road and sell someone else his perceived over rated oil that Amsoil produces. This engine builder had already failed other highly rated oils on dyno runs using his diesel oil versus Mobil 1, Joe Gibbs racing oil, and Royal Purple and he thought he would be able to do the same against the Amsoil 15w 50 racing oil.
When Larry called me before performing this test and told me the oil he chose to use I told him he may be setting himself up for failure due to a NON apples to apples comparison because he was testing a 50 weight against a 40 weight. The 40 weight oil no matter what oil base it was would have an unequal advantage typically. My choice would have been to test our 10w 40 motorcycle oil to keep an apples to apples test.
Now I would like some of you gearheads to explain the logic of these test results. Also this racing oil can certainly be used in your engine, but this is not a reccommended oil for your harley. Is it possible that all oils are not created equal?
I'm not for sure if it is stated in any posts but Rotella has 2 versions of 15w40, they offer a low ash version of oil for the recently manufactured self burning exhaust systems, sorry I can't remember the rating letters but I am familiar with it for truck warrenty procedures.
Cummins engines had to meet the emission standards, they raised compression and cooling temperature for more cylinder heat and put the rest of of combustion waste into the oil to meet the standard. The oil became black real quick but still was set up on 6000-12000 miles oil change intravals in the heavy duty line, more heat and wharehousing waste, that should determine the durability of Rotella.
Been in truck field for a long time, never put Rotella and Harley together - still learning from these forums, 275 gallons sets in the middle of my shop. I'll say dah!
The fact remains that Harley doesn't recommend Amsoil or any other synthetic for the 96 inchers, not even their own Syn 3 anywhere in the factory service manual. What they recommend is HD360 in 20w50 weight or Diesel oil in 20w50 or 15w40 weight. That's good enough for them and they're the ones eating any warranty claims if they're wrong.
I'm not saying don't use synthetic, If you want to spend the extra that's fine with me but the doom and gloom if we don't certainly isn't necessary
Read the fine print after the approved oils. They say go to your nearest Dealer and change back to 100 percent Harley Davidson oil. I'll stick to the oil experts for oil advise, not a vehical dealer.
I have used Rotella in motorcycles for years after seeing how well it held up in Diesels. Recently I tore down a Ducati 900 that had been run on Golden Spectro 20/50 Full Synthetic and was amazed to see how few deposits and wear had occured. I am familiar enough with those engines to know what it should look like after 20K miles on dino oil, and the difference was shocking. Even as tight as I am, I will be using synthetic on anything I want to put a lot of miles on.
I got rid of the Amsoil too. After about 800 miles, it would take 5 minutes of idling to pump the lifters back up. After 1200 miles, the top end noise was so bad I had to stop in the middle of a x-country ride and change the oil again. Started using HD20w50 again, and guess what? no more top end noise. I've talked to many people who freakin Hate Amsoil because of this very problem.
55k miles on the bike. Would like to try the rotella 15w40 once.
Top end noise is what made me go back to dino oil. I tried Mobil 1 Vtwin in my 96 incher for the 1k oil change and ran it till the 5k change, the top end sounded like a rock in a tin can. I went back to Rotella and it quieted right down again and has been quiet ever since at almost 9k. I use the 15w40 in the winter because the temps are usually in the low 40*s...once it warms up I'll use HD360 in 20w50 weight, continue to change oil and filter every 5k and not worry about it.
Amsoil for 16k miles and not any of those problems. Maybe the problem was something else not the oil. Sounds like changing oil just covered up something deeper.
Actually, I'm not the only one who had the collapsed lifter & top end noise problem. I tried it for approx 5k miles, could never get amsoil to work right. (99 TC FLHTC). I've since put close to 30k miles on it since I changed back to Dino with No problems. So I doubt it was something deeper.
Over the last couple years I've told this story many times, and I've heard "Hey same thing happened to Me" several times. The latest was last week. A friend who works parts at a local stealership hears about this once in a while too.
Valve clatter noise in my 50cc 4stroke Honda Ruckus using amsoil syn 4 stroke scooter oil too. Switched over to Honda's recomended oil, problem went away.
Maybe Amsoil just hates Me...but I certainly have given them a shot though.
I like Rotella,I run it in my 454 chevy dually,never thought of using it in my bike,might be better for cold weather riding..As far as synthetic oil I don't like it because most of them don't have any rust inhibitors,and an engine sitting in a garage/trailer that is not heated or ran periodically will condensate and rust internally...I have experienced this first hand with one of our Jr dragster engines,crank with surface rust,bearings rusted,talk about being sick.....I believe I will stick with the petroleum based oils.
All oils, no matter what the base, have rust inhibitors added to prevent rust. Base oils by themselves can not protect against rust without these additives. What you experienced might have been a racing oil specifically designed for that application with very limited addititves to prevent rust. In a dragster engine, if using alcohol or nitrous fuels, the oil is changed before each pass due to heavy fuel contamination and if that is the situation and you used a racing oil only, then that is the reason you seen rust, not because it was synthetic or not.
I had an engine apart after it had developed a piston problem after it had many hours on the engine using my favorite synthetic. I looked at the crank two years later, after it had laid in the garage in a high humid climate and it still had an oil coating on it and no rust. My expectation was that it would be dry and have rust, but it didn't. The synthetic I use has a long metal cling time (hang time) and when checking the oil immediately after engine shutdown (in a wet sump oil system) you can get an inaccurate low indication, especially with our diesel oils. So if you don't want to use a synthetic oil find a better reason, not rust.
george
I am not making up this claim to keep from using synthetic,I am speaking from experience I switched from the synthetic racing oil we were running to a good quality non-synthetic and have not had the problem any more,I guess I just got lucky and Paul from PLR racing engines,Carrico from Wheelie motorsports don't know what they are talking about...Sorry if I offended you.
You are not offending anyone. You simply are stating an example from your experience with rust that developed while using a synthetic racing oil which apparently had no rust inhibitors in it's additive package. What brand racing oil did you use and what was it's base? Was it a glycol based synthetic? There is many synthetics on the market made from different chemical bases for specific applications. Which one are you talking about?
george
george, im gonna throw a bone in here. i was running 60 wt during the summer and all was well. as temps dropped into the 60's. i started geting lifter noise. switched back to amsoil and still had lifter noise.
wondering if the new 5 or 10 micron filters were passing enough oil, i switched to a 28 micron filter just to test-----wala! lifters shut up. oil pressure gauge ( good dauge adapted to the case port for the idiot light) showed over 20 # hot idle, and over 40# at cruise.
findings--------the fine micron filters were the culprit. oil pressure after the filter was minimal with the "better" filters. motor is very quiet now.
opinion----i would rather have quantity over quality when it comes to oil. dont get me wrong, i would rather have filtered oil in quantity, but as it works, if the relief valve pops open because the oil cant pass through the fine filtering agent, we are getting unfilterred oil! if you r aise the micron specs, you get filtered oil all the time, albeit not as finely filtered as advertised. therefore, give me plenty of oil filtered down to 20-28 micron vs. oil that is filtered to 10 micron SOME OF THE TIME!
Dennis this is good input. You looked at your situation and chose to logically try to troubleshoot instead of blaming the oil. What motor do you have? In my questioning in the previous post I alluded to a low oil pressure possibility, which you confirmed. I am not trying to defend Amsoil as much as I am trying to get people to quit blaming any oil for design or workmanship poblems or mechanical malfunctions. Any oil that meets the right specs for the application will work.
george