Using Oil "how Much"???

[ol'nitro]

Just purchased new ultra classic, and a friend who had a dwg told me his bike never burned a drop of oil in 95000 miles and if mine used any they were something wrong, that sounds like pure BS to me, a motor has to use some oil. what does yours use say in between changes?? oh yes running syn 3 oil

[springer-]

I see your bike is an 05, you might want to check out this thread ....
http://www.v-twinforum.com/forums/sh...ad.php?t=63946

[xxxflhrci]

I have an '00 with 59k. It doesn't need oil added between changes. Same with my 134k Toyota and 106k Jeep.

[KKRider]

Read page 3 "valve seal updates"

http://mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/...st_10_2005.pdf


It doesn't sound like your bike is using oil, rather you are just asking for dialog based on your buddy's comment?..... Regardless, my 06 Dyna doesn't use any oil either. I put 26 hundred fast road miles on it right after the first oil change and it didn't burn/loose a drop. That was with only 275 break-in miles on it too, some would say you can't do that

You will notice in the official H-D document that H-D also acknowledges potentially faulty installation of said seals as a contributing factor in addition to them being tweaked sideways.

They didn't go as far in their evaluation of the problem, or to actually say why the seals were being tweaked sideways with proper installation as Tom-AMS does. However, I'm sure Tom and other knowledgeable people (H-D included) who understand mechanics, also know springs (especially straight wound springs) always bow slightly when compressed, and then transfer their stored energy sideways as it's being released (unless it's positively located of course).

This is just a guess on my part, but maybe they were of the opinion the new taper/radius wound (beehive) springs wouldn't transfer their stored energy in such a manner as the straight wound springs would given the fact they don't bow as much when compressed, WHO knows? (it's all cost driven)

Don't forget the vibration dynamic taking place with in a running engine either...(good mechanics and machinist never do!). So, it could also be possible the durometer of the old seal is allowing vibration of a destructive nature to go resonant within the seal material itself and then turn the black seals to putty at certain RPMs allowing oil past.

I'm not about to pull my covers off to see what color the seals are on my guides though,

My parts manual is the second addition # 99439-06A, copyrighted in 05 and lists the 18094-02 oil seal#. However, this doesn't mean anything. The bike was built in 12-05 and more than likely has the late (new and improved) orange seals.

Tom at AMS came to the same conclusion regarding the valve seal problem as H-D did, (through testing/observation rather than conjecture). While his previous style seal fix may be permanent, it's tantamount to re-inventing the wheel, not to mention cost! It wouldn't take a genius to come up with a fix to locate the late seals concentrically with the guides for less than a few dollars each, although it's yet to be shown that orange seals when "INSTALLED PROPERLY" are still leaking oil!

Here's a question a guy asked Tom of AMS regarding 05 seals and AMS' answer - from another forum.


Tom - AMS
FT Worth, TX
1-800-210-8675

Check out 18344-05 SE valve spring kit - $165.00 This will change the seals to the more conventional style seal. If you have the P&A cat they are on pg 524 at the top left. The top right shows the style seal you now have, with the seat and seal made in a unit.

Valve stem seal failure on '05 and later engines seems to be increasing as the summer wears on. We done some extensive research on why they fail and finding a better fix. Simply replacing the seal with the factory seal (p/n 18094-02) is asking for a repeat failure. The problem is the seal design uses the rubber seal to center and anchor the valve springs seat. As the spring compresses it "walks" to one side, twisting the stem seal and pulling it away from the valve. To compound this, the seals material is too stiff to compensate for the side load forces, and the static wire ring that is intended to keep the seal in contact with the valve stem is too rigid and can't compensate for the additional wear, once the spring and seal relax.

The fix the MoCo has come out with, is to use a more flexible seal material. There are actually two redesigned seals. A "green ring" seal (18094-02A) to be used as a stop-gap measure until a more flexible "orange" seal (e.g. silicon rubber, also to be designated p/n 18094-02A) can be manufactured and distributed. However, the basic design flaw still remains: the spring seat is still bonded to the seal and relys on the seal itself to center the spring with the guide. The "walking" still occurs. AMS has tested this, and has found that using a seal and spring seat design similar to the time-tested and proven system used by 2004 and earlier Harleys is a more reliable and permanent fix.

We modify the OE spring seat to center off the valve guide, seperately from the stem seal. This completely removes any spring "side loading" or "walking" forces from effecting the stem seal. Next we machine the top of the guide to accept a positive stem seal, much like those used on the 2004 and earlier engines. The stem seals we use have a metal shell bonded to high temp viton rubber with a coil spring-type wear compensator, instead of the simple wire ring used by Harley. This coil-spring type tensioner maintains a more equal contact pressure on the valve stem, for more accurate oil metering.

Short of having AMS modify your heads for the better stem seals, be sure to ask your dealer to show you the stem seals he is going to refit on your bike - the orange colored seals are the more flexible and what the MoCo plans to use in the future. The down side is they will not wear as well - the softer more flexible orange compound has a lower abrasion (i.e. wear) rating. The interim "green ring" seals should wear better, but aren't quite as flexible and may tend to fail sooner, similar to the original seals' problem. The $64,000 question is which is better? IMHO, neither is acceptable... which is why we chose to use a seperate Viton seal. From our research, most dealers are currently using either new original seals (p/n 18094-02 all black w/silver ring) or the interim green ringed seals. Make your dealer show you the seals - you definitely do not want to go back with the original "black w/silver ring" seals... Good luck on your repairs.

Ride Safe,

[ViennaHog]

How do you determine oil consumption? Many guys will tell 'my bike doesn't use any oil' and they change every 3000 miles not knowing how much oil is missing. If you really want to know, fill it up to a determined mark at a given oil temperature, ride it a thousand miles and then fill it up with a burette to the same level at the same temperature you measured it before. That will tell you something, lot of the oil consumption talk is just anecdotal.

[KKRider]

Originally Posted by ViennaHog

How do you determine oil consumption? Many guys will tell 'my bike doesn't use any oil' and they change every 3000 miles not knowing how much oil is missing. If you really want to know, fill it up to a determined mark at a given oil temperature, ride it a thousand miles and then fill it up with a burette to the same level at the same temperature you measured it before. That will tell you something, lot of the oil consumption talk is just anecdotal.

Agreed

I don't think most guys are talking about splitting hairs though, I know I'm not.

My bike was parked in the same spot, same temp etc. when I checked it's oil level. It wasn't down at all, again, not splitting hairs here.

There is also no oil pressent in the exhaust using the old finger test

[ol'nitro]

Thanks guys, i really wanted just a dialog but i got a lot of good advice.
i need a good all around view of why and how or what i should expect. so thanks for all the ideas and suggestions. thanks again

[ViennaHog]

Originally Posted by ol'nitro

Thanks guys, i really wanted just a dialog but i got a lot of good advice.
i need a good all around view of why and how or what i should expect. so thanks for all the ideas and suggestions. thanks again

My stock bike used about about 10 ounces between oil changes every 3000 miles, the 95" (ridden much harder) on long trips with high loads up to a quarter every 3000 miles, the current 107" is too new to tell, but consensus is that real oil consumption can be determined only after the full break in. The max consumption that HD states in their manual ( I believe a quart very 1000 miles or so) is just pure CYA, an engine burning that much oil under normal condition is done for a major look see.
Hope that helps

[20538]

My brother in law rented a 05 full dresser last year. they showed him where to check the oil, he asked if they checked it, they said yes they checked it. we were 400 miles into the weekend ride when the engine was really hot so he checked the oil and it was 3 quarts low. I still am amazed that it wasn't a fried motor on this bike. he just filled it up with some oil he got a gas station and kept an eye on the level. didn't say anything when he returned it but they told him that was the last bike rental for their dealership. I wouldn't be surprised to hear the 05's were the reason for them not renting anymore. I then read about the 05's problems here.

[Snobal]

Nitro,

I got an '06 Ultra last fall and it does not seem to use any oil at all between changes --- but then I only have 2,500 miles on it due to being snowed in for the past few months (and more snow forecast for today). I've been running dino oil but just switched to Mobil 1 last night at the 2,500 mile service (I do my own maintenance). I'll see if the syn oil works any different than old fashioned dino stuff.

I used dino oil in the first 5 HDs (and all the other brands of bikes I've owned over the years) and none of them have "used" oil to where I had to add any between changes every 2500 to 3000 miles. However, to be fair, I simply ride my bikes --- I don't race them. Also, I don't screw around with the engines - most have been close to stock as I believe the manufacturer may know more about building reliable bikes than I do.



JMHO

[arfisher1]

I read somewhere that synthetic oil will evaporate under hot operatng conditions. This is a normal characteristic. The oil is great for heat and lubricating. It does not weaken as quick as dino oil. The article suggested to check the oil on a regular basis, when using the motor under hard operating conditions. To each their own, to decide what dictates that situation.

Respectfully submitted;
arfisher1
2005 Victory Hammer (100 cu. in. motor)