Engine noise, Synthetic oil vs. Mineral oil.

[Night King]

I´ve seen it mentioned here quite often, that after changing to synthetic engine oil, to expect more/louder engine noises.
Such is the case with my 2009 FLHR.
At the 1000 mile service, changed to Mobil 1 V-Twin 20/50 syn.
3500 miles now on the clock.
The noise sounds like a glass jar half full of stones, rolling across the floor...! (Only way I can describe it!)
I had heard these noises while running in with the factory fill, but nowhere near as loud as it is since the change to Mobil 1. The noise isn´t always as loud however, only at certain revs. It´s most noticeable when the engine is hot.

Can someone explain to me, the technical reason why this is?
George Douglas-is it the same with Amsoil? (Can´t get it here in Germany).

Thinking of going back to dino 20/50...
Thanks in advance for any help!

Cheers!
mike

[luvstoride]

Originally Posted by Night King

Can someone explain to me, the technical reason why this is?

I'm no expert, and you will likely get many answers, but a very knowledgeable member here gave me this theory. Dino oil contains molecules of different sizes whereas the molecules in syn are all the same size. Therefore, dino actually takes up more "area" than the same weight syn. He told me to look at it like this......if you filled a gym floor with all kinds of balls, volleyballs, basketballs, tennis balls, etc and tried to roll across them, you could do it, but if you filled the floor with all volleyballs, imagine how much better you could roll across the floor.

Therefore the syn (volleyballs) molecules are all the same size and give a "slicker" surface, but the dino (the odd sized balls) actually give more of a "thickness" for filling gaps, thus, quieter valve train.

Make sense to you? It did to me.

[Night King]

Originally Posted by luvstoride

I'm no expert, and you will likely get many answers, but a very knowledgeable member here gave me this theory. Dino oil contains molecules of different sizes whereas the molecules in syn are all the same size. Therefore, dino actually takes up more "area" than the same weight syn. He told me to look at it like this......if you filled a gym floor with all kinds of balls, volleyballs, basketballs, tennis balls, etc and tried to roll across them, you could do it, but if you filled the floor with all volleyballs, imagine how much better you could roll across the floor.

Therefore the syn (volleyballs) molecules are all the same size and give a "slicker" surface, but the dino (the odd sized balls) actually give more of a "thickness" for filling gaps, thus, quieter valve train.

Make sense to you? It did to me.

Yes, indeed! In fact that´s exactly how I´ve always understood the difference between syn & dino. But is that really the reason for more noise?
I would think that, with all other things being equal; viscosity etc; having the molecules all the same size would give the best "cushioning" effect... no?

Thanks anyway!
mike

[stevent]

Ha Haaa shows what you know!!! Synthetic oil is better because it costs more and everyone knows if it costs more it must be better! plus some people say it's better REAL LOUD and everyone knows if you say something REAL LOUD IT MUST BE TRUE.........

You see what we have here is a vast conspiricy from the "MOCO" (that's Harley-Davidson) down to the "stealerships" ( those are Harley Dealers)..to screw up our engines by recommending their HD360 or 15w40 HDEO oil instead of even their own SYN3 which test show is in the same class as Mobil 1 and Amsoil. That way when our engines puke a week or two after the warranty runs out they can make a fortune on rebuilding engines plus they'll make even more money selling synthetic oil after that.......why it's pure genius!


It's a brillient plan and I'm sure they must be making a mint off it already those shifty devils!

[Night King]

Originally Posted by stevent

Ha Haaa shows what you know!!! Synthetic oil is better because it costs more and everyone knows if it costs more it must be better! plus some people say it's better REAL LOUD and everyone knows if you say something REAL LOUD IT MUST BE TRUE.........

You see what we have here is a vast conspiricy from the "MOCO" (that's Harley-Davidson) down to the "stealerships" ( those are Harley Dealers)..to screw up our engines by recommending their HD360 or 15w40 HDEO oil instead of even their own SYN3 which test show is in the same class as Mobil 1 and Amsoil. That way when our engines puke a week or two after the warranty runs out they can make a fortune on rebuilding engines plus they'll make even more money selling synthetic oil after that.......why it's pure genius!


It's a brillient plan and I'm sure they must be making a mint off it already those shifty devils!

I´ve seen you on other threads, plugging the benefits and advantages of Harley´s own branded oils and the Rotella diesel oils recommended by the moco, so what was your point?

And what´s all this "Ha Haaa shows what you know"?

I´m just looking for some good answers dude, from people who know their way around these new engines.

mike

[vindex1963]

Originally Posted by Night King

I´ve seen you on other threads, plugging the benefits and advantages of Harley´s own branded oils and the Rotella diesel oils recommended by the moco, so what was your point?

And what´s all this "Ha Haaa shows what you know"?

I´m just looking for some good answers dude, from people who know their way around these new engines.

mike

Get used to it on the oil section of the forum. Everyone has a better combination, better way.
This is what makes the oil section so entertaining.
Tongue in cheek my friend.

[stevent]

Originally Posted by Night King

I´ve seen you on other threads, plugging the benefits and advantages of Harley´s own branded oils and the Rotella diesel oils recommended by the moco, so what was your point?

And what´s all this "Ha Haaa shows what you know"?

I´m just looking for some good answers dude, from people who know their way around these new engines.

mike

It was an attempt at humor, apparently a weak one. mea culpa.

I do plug HD's and Shells oil because that's what the factory recommends despite what internet petrochemists expound. I think it's silly the lengths that some people go with their synthetic only to the point of dumping perfectly good dino oil on the ground before their engine grenades at 500 miles. Even more confusing are the "full synthetic-change every 3k miles" (or less) crowd

In point of fact, I agree synthetic lubricates "better" however it's the same as the argument over dropping 5 atom bombs when 1 will do quite nicely. Realistically It's not any of my business what you or anyone else puts in their bikes so feel free to ignore me, As far as knowing my way around engines, I've been riding and racing bikes for over 43 years, other than 2 stroke motocrossers ran too lean back in the early 70's I don't remember ever seeing an oil related failure so the reality is you could run just about anything you want in there as long as it's the proper viscosity for the temperature.

I've put over 500k miles on Shovelheads and AMF Sporties with straight 50 & 60 weight along with various multigrades in a ton of Japanese and European bikes without a hitch so in my mind at least I feel my experience is valid enough to say that the synthetic only hand wringing is just that. It's your bike and your money, the fact that my bikes top end sounds like a rock in a tin can with synthetic while it's smooth and quiet with HD and HDEO is proof enough for me.

[maddogg4]

K.I.S.S. Shake, Rattle and Roll!!!!!

[xtractor]

"The noise sounds like a glass jar half full of stones, rolling across the floor...! (Only way I can describe it!)"

Sounds kinda like a diesel, humm..

"Can someone explain to me, the technical reason why this is?"

Your lugging your bike.

[Night King]

Originally Posted by xtractor

Your lugging your bike.

On the contrary mate, I always keep the revs in the mid-range.

Stevent, I hear ya now mate, didn´t quite understand your "banter"... (engl. humour)...sorry.

I´m not new to most of this; 32 years & 400k miles on 2 wheels, served 9 years in the British Army, ´75-´84, Tank Regiment, working on all kinds of vehicles. Always done my own maintenance, so I understand a bit about lubrication as far as mineral oils go, ´cause that´s all I´ve ever really used. My question was just as to why it´s louder with syn, that´s all, learn something new every day!

I do understand that any decent 20/50 will work just fine, I just tried out the mobil 1 ´cause I don´t mind experimenting, and after reading so many good things about it here.
I had syn in my last bike, an ´06 Nightrod, and it made it a little quieter compared to dino; but that engine is of course a completely different animal.
Most of my other bikes had OHV/push-rod systems, Triumph bonnies, BSA A10´s etc, but I always managed to keep them quiet by regularly checkin/adjusting the tappets.

So thanks mate, once again for your replies; was just wanting to know the reason why syn makes the valve train louder.
Maybe I should have restricted my question to just that.

Have a good one
Cheers!
mike

[stevent]

No problem, to be honest it baffles me as well. In theory if synthetic is the better lubricant, better film strength, similar length polymers etc then you'd think it would be quieter, not louder but there's a definate increase in top end engine noise with the synth. oil over dino oil.

It's not that I'm against synthetic oil, I've used MX4T before on my Trophy 1200 and it didn't bother it, it also didn't seem to mind the Rotella and at heart I'm a cheap SOB so that's what I stuck with however if I felt it was inadequate in any way I would bite the bullet and pay more for the synthetic.

Working on tanks must have been a kick in the ass, I was going to join the Army myself in '75 but went into the Navy instead as a Boiler Technician. I've worked around power plant machinery ever since so I'm aware of specific oils for specific applications. I just figure with bikes I go with the factory recommendations, they designed and built the engines and have a vested interest in their reliability so I assume they know what they're talking about regarding lubricants for those engines.

[Night King]

Originally Posted by stevent

No problem, to be honest it baffles me as well. In theory if synthetic is the better lubricant, better film strength, similar length polymers etc then you'd think it would be quieter, not louder but there's a definate increase in top end engine noise with the synth. oil over dino oil.

It's not that I'm against synthetic oil, I've used MX4T before on my Trophy 1200 and it didn't bother it, it also didn't seem to mind the Rotella and at heart I'm a cheap SOB so that's what I stuck with however if I felt it was inadequate in any way I would bite the bullet and pay more for the synthetic.

Working on tanks must have been a kick in the ass, I was going to join the Army myself in '75 but went into the Navy instead as a Boiler Technician. I've worked around power plant machinery ever since so I'm aware of specific oils for specific applications. I just figure with bikes I go with the factory recommendations, they designed and built the engines and have a vested interest in their reliability so I assume they know what they're talking about regarding lubricants for those engines.

Yep, well said mate.

The noise is really getting on my nerves now, so I´m going back to HD360. Can´t find Rotella-T here in Germany, and there are several other companies offering 20/50 dino motorcycle oils, Liqui Moly, Castrol, etc, but I´ve had enough of experimenting.
I´ve got syn ATF in my primary, and syn gear oil in my trans too, and at first I thought I felt an improvement there too, but when everythings hot, it feels similar to the Formula+ that was in there beforehand, but maybe that´s just me.
I can live with a few clacks and bangs from the transmission, (most bikes I´ve had have done that), as long as I can quieten down the top-end racket.

I´m also not against syns, on the contrary, I use it in my BMW Z3 Coupé; engine-trans-diff, and it´s great there.

Yes, working on Chieftain tanks was a pain sometimes, but when we actually got around to driving them, the reward was good. Glad I didn´t have to go to war in one though... (that´s a whole other can o´worms).

3 bikes ago, I had a Triumph 955i Daytona, and that engine always sounded like a bag of nails, I had syn in that too, but I just put a racing pipe on it that was so loud, I had to wear earplugs on longer trips!

A few mates of mine have twin-cams, and their engines are dead quiet; when I ask them what oil they´re running, they look puzzled and say; "the Harley stuff, why?"

It was great experimenting though; I love learning about all this.
Apart from a couple of weeks in August when air temps can reach over 30C/86F, we have a pretty mild climate here in Northern Germany, (and friggin´ cold winters, it´s getting cold now).

Thanks again mate.
mike

[xtractor]

It sounds to me then you may have a tuning issue, type petro/ fuel you using. If your engine has been built up and not stock, you might try a additive. I use Lucas oil additive, "zink plus" in my dyno and syn oils I run in my 103. I use syn here in the cold temps, better cold crank-ups with syn. In very hot riding conditions, stop and go traffic I add Lucas oil stabilizer with my dyno 50w. I change my oil often.

[stevent]

Originally Posted by Night King

Yep, well said mate.

The noise is really getting on my nerves now, so I´m going back to HD360. Can´t find Rotella-T here in Germany, and there are several other companies offering 20/50 dino motorcycle oils, Liqui Moly, Castrol, etc, but I´ve had enough of experimenting.
I´ve got syn ATF in my primary, and syn gear oil in my trans too, and at first I thought I felt an improvement there too, but when everythings hot, it feels similar to the Formula+ that was in there beforehand, but maybe that´s just me.
I can live with a few clacks and bangs from the transmission, (most bikes I´ve had have done that), as long as I can quieten down the top-end racket.

I´m also not against syns, on the contrary, I use it in my BMW Z3 Coupé; engine-trans-diff, and it´s great there.

Yes, working on Chieftain tanks was a pain sometimes, but when we actually got around to driving them, the reward was good. Glad I didn´t have to go to war in one though... (that´s a whole other can o´worms).

3 bikes ago, I had a Triumph 955i Daytona, and that engine always sounded like a bag of nails, I had syn in that too, but I just put a racing pipe on it that was so loud, I had to wear earplugs on longer trips!

A few mates of mine have twin-cams, and their engines are dead quiet; when I ask them what oil they´re running, they look puzzled and say; "the Harley stuff, why?"

It was great experimenting though; I love learning about all this.
Apart from a couple of weeks in August when air temps can reach over 30C/86F, we have a pretty mild climate here in Northern Germany, (and friggin´ cold winters, it´s getting cold now).

Thanks again mate.
mike

Chilly here too, 37f this morning and some low fog. One of the reasons I'm comfortable with mineral oil is the temps here for the next 6 month at least will run between upper 20's and low 50's. If I lived where temps hit 80's and up most of the year I suppose I would feel differently but 15w40 and HD360 is ideal for this weather.

My Trophy 1200 sounded like a diesel from day one, I guess they use thin valve cover castings for less weight and transfer all the noise right out the top, beautiful bike though. I put about 70k on it before I got hit by a lane changer that totaled it. That was 2005 when I went back to Harley after years on Triumphs and BMW's. Never regretted it but I do miss the Trophy. I'm sure you've seen this eh? though it's a Challanger 2 not a Chieftan



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-wKfp...ature=related#

[Night King]

Originally Posted by xtractor

It sounds to me then you may have a tuning issue, type petro/ fuel you using. If your engine has been built up and not stock, you might try a additive. I use Lucas oil additive, "zink plus" in my dyno and syn oils I run in my 103. I use syn here in the cold temps, better cold crank-ups with syn. In very hot riding conditions, stop and go traffic I add Lucas oil stabilizer with my dyno 50w. I change my oil often.

Naa mate, all stock except PC5 with wide band Lambdas, Kess-Tech adjustable mufflers, Big Sucker air-intake/K&N air filter. Runs absolutely wonderful, never misses a beat, pulls like a tank, (my tank). If it wasn´t for the bloody racket she´s makin´ she´d be perfect; so it´s back to normal mineral oil for me!

Stevent, thank you so much for that link!
I´ll try not to go off topic for too long ok..
The Challenger II, God isn´t she a beauty! That brought back memories, I can tell you! Mine was a MK2XY Chieftain, built in the late sixties! But I baby´d her and she was one of the quickest in the regiment; 36mph as per my speedo; the old chronometric speedos from Smiths were very accurate, built like a swiss clock. Now 36mph may not seem fast to some of you, but when you´ve got 56 imperial tons behind you...
Those soldiers in the clip are from my old regiment, I used to look like that! I´ll have to go to one of the next "Old Boys Banquets" and see if I can´t have a go in one of them new MKII´s....

Sorry to hear about your accident mate, hope nothing permanent happened to you..?

Last year I was hit by an 85 year old grandpa in his Ford Mondeo; my Nightrod suffered minor damage, I had a broken ankle. 7 weeks later my eldest brother had a fatal accident on his Triumph Tiger 955i, but that´s another story.

Thanks again mate, made my day!
Cheers!
mike