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Old 12-31-2012, 09:24 PM   #4696 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hdrider1 View Post
I'm getting ready to install the following build on my 2010 Dyna Wide Glide (currently 96") and need a recommendation for a good base map. I contacted Zippers and they seemed to think map 792 would be a good fit until I asked them about Map 812 which they then said either one should work. The maps appear to have significant differences in both Timing and AFR, so I was hoping to get some collective opinions from the group of which would be the closer base map (792, 812, other?).

The build will be as follows (I'm doing the work myself):

T-Man stage 4 Heads (2.0/1.62)
107" Bored (by T-Man) Cylinders
T-man 11:1 Pistons
T-Man 662-1 Cam (.660 lift, 45deg int close, 248 dur)
HPI 55mm Throttle Body
HPI 5.3g/s injectors
D&D Fatcat 2-1 Exhaust w/big bore baffle
30 Tooth Transmission Pulley

In looking over the maps it appears that 792 is more aggressive than 812 -- more timing advance and richer AFR. Map 792 is based on Redshift Cam TC577 (.577 lift, 47deg int close, 252 dur) and Map 812 is based on Redshift Cam TC657 (.657 lift, 45deg int close, 252 dur).

It appears that Map 792 is used for Zippers 103 "Muscle Kit" while Map 892 was developed for 113 high compression engines, but used in 103 and 110 engines.

Thoughts?

Thanks,
Dennis
Custom map.
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Old 12-31-2012, 09:41 PM   #4697 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cardboard View Post
Main thing you want to match up is the Cam
Forgit everything else

That seems logical to me, but the Tmax manual says to match up the throttle body first, then the heads-- they appear to put much less emphasis on matching the cams than I would have thought. Perhaps that's why I see some feedback that maps for more radical cams seem to work fine on builds with milder cams.
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Old 12-31-2012, 09:47 PM   #4698 (permalink)
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You match the cams FIRST !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The cams control timing, the timing controls the firing and the spark and the fuel.
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Old 12-31-2012, 09:48 PM   #4699 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by claydbal View Post
Custom map.

Once I tweak the map it'll be custom. Right now the intent of this exercise is to find the closest starting basemap to get me going. My gut feel right now is map 812 because it's a reasonable match on Throttle body, head valve sizes, and cam timing.
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Old 12-31-2012, 09:58 PM   #4700 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cardboard View Post
You match the cams FIRST !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The cams control timing, the timing controls the firing and the spark and the fuel.
I can't fault anything you said and I agree. I just wonder why the Tmax manual in the "choosing a basemap" section doesn't seem to share this sentiment- it made me wonder if I was overlooking something.

Looks like basing it on the cam specs would favor map 812 with the Redshift 657 cam being closer to the Tman 662-1.
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Old 12-31-2012, 10:27 PM   #4701 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hdrider1 View Post
I can't fault anything you said and I agree. I just wonder why the Tmax manual in the "choosing a basemap" section doesn't seem to share this sentiment- it made me wonder if I was overlooking something.

Looks like basing it on the cam specs would favor map 812 with the Redshift 657 cam being closer to the Tman 662-1.
Claydbl taught me what I told you 5 yrs ago.
I have been to Galveston , Texas to the Lonestar Rally and been to the Thunder-Max booth.
They had Thunder-Heart there. They told me the same thing.
Thunder-Heart wrote the software.

I've had a TM on more than one bike of my own. One was a 07 cable drive.
Two has been a TBW drive.

I've installed them on 5 more bikes of friends.
Everything now is sent in threw the info gathered on the computer and emailed to Thunder-Heart.
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Old 01-03-2013, 12:14 PM   #4702 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hdrider1 View Post
I can't fault anything you said and I agree. I just wonder why the Tmax manual in the "choosing a basemap" section doesn't seem to share this sentiment- it made me wonder if I was overlooking something.

Looks like basing it on the cam specs would favor map 812 with the Redshift 657 cam being closer to the Tman 662-1.
I just got an e-mail from Brian Kochanski at Tman Performance about the map choice. He said that he would recommend using Base Map 792 because of the exhaust used. Base map 812 is based on a Thunderheader 2-1 while base map 792 uses a D&D fatcat 2-1 (which I will be using) -- he said even though they are both 2-1, there is a LARGE difference between them. Apparently the difference in the exhausts overshadows the difference between the Redshift 577 cam versus the Redshift 657 cam.

I guess the moral of the story is look at the cam match-up first and if it's "close enough" then look at the next most significant item. In this case it looks like the exhaust system was that item. Unfortunately I'm not experienced enough to recognize what "close enough" is on the cam specs or that there were major differences in 2-1 exhaust systems.

Any other thoughts on this?
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Old 01-03-2013, 04:23 PM   #4703 (permalink)
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I match the cam 1st, then I try to see if it has a setup of a 2in1 exhaust like you said. Nothin runs as good as a good 2in1 exhaust
I had to turn decal fuel on oh.

Hope you find a map you like. YOu still need to ride the bike and vary your riding for hundreds of miles for it to tune better.
Make sure you have Auto tune on too. And leave it on.
I had my auto tune set to 10%
5% is o.k. but it takes a little longer to tune. No big deal.

when you change maps. clear your learned offsets too.
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Old 01-03-2013, 05:00 PM   #4704 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cardboard View Post
I match the cam 1st, then I try to see if it has a setup of a 2in1 exhaust like you said. Nothin runs as good as a good 2in1 exhaust
I had to turn decal fuel on oh.

Hope you find a map you like. YOu still need to ride the bike and vary your riding for hundreds of miles for it to tune better.
Make sure you have Auto tune on too. And leave it on.
I had my auto tune set to 10%
5% is o.k. but it takes a little longer to tune. No big deal.

when you change maps. clear your learned offsets too.
I read you loud and clear.

I just started the build yesterday. At my slow steady/careful pace it'll probably be the end of January before I'm ready to fire it up (and then the weather will dictate any real riding -- it's 27 deg here in Ohio right now).

I also have a 2010 Road King (TBW) that's running map 193. It's a Stage 2 T-man build with 107" at 10.5CR and Tman 625 Cam (and a Baker 7 speed transmission). It only made 109hp and 113tq -- numbers seemed kind of low for a 107", but T-man said that was typical for a Stage 2 in the 6-speed bikes (citing higher transmission losses).
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Old 01-03-2013, 06:24 PM   #4705 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hdrider1 View Post
I read you loud and clear.

I just started the build yesterday. At my slow steady/careful pace it'll probably be the end of January before I'm ready to fire it up (and then the weather will dictate any real riding -- it's 27 deg here in Ohio right now).

I also have a 2010 Road King (TBW) that's running map 193. It's a Stage 2 T-man build with 107" at 10.5CR and Tman 625 Cam (and a Baker 7 speed transmission). It only made 109hp and 113tq -- numbers seemed kind of low for a 107", but T-man said that was typical for a Stage 2 in the 6-speed bikes (citing higher transmission losses).
Dauym

Good Luck on your build. Sounds like a Great Build/

Tman makes some bad ass kits. And I like the fact he likes Thunder-Max

Not is you are aware of it or not. But you need a belt tensioner guage for the rear belt. Too much belt tension will trash the tranny bearing over time.
Don't think there is a high number of folks using them.
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Old 01-20-2013, 11:48 AM   #4706 (permalink)
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Finished the 107" Build

Quote:
Originally Posted by hdrider1 View Post
I'm getting ready to install the following build on my 2010 Dyna Wide Glide (currently 96") and need a recommendation for a good base map. I contacted Zippers and they seemed to think map 792 would be a good fit until I asked them about Map 812 which they then said either one should work. The maps appear to have significant differences in both Timing and AFR, so I was hoping to get some collective opinions from the group of which would be the closer base map (792, 812, other?).

The build will be as follows (I'm doing the work myself):

T-Man stage 4 Heads (2.0/1.62)
107" Bored (by T-Man) Cylinders
T-man 11:1 Pistons
T-Man 662-1 Cam (.660 lift, 45deg int close, 248 dur)
HPI 55mm Throttle Body
HPI 5.3g/s injectors
D&D Fatcat 2-1 Exhaust w/big bore baffle
30 Tooth Transmission Pulley

In looking over the maps it appears that 792 is more aggressive than 812 -- more timing advance and richer AFR. Map 792 is based on Redshift Cam TC577 (.577 lift, 47deg int close, 252 dur) and Map 812 is based on Redshift Cam TC657 (.657 lift, 45deg int close, 252 dur).

It appears that Map 792 is used for Zippers 103 "Muscle Kit" while Map 892 was developed for 113 high compression engines, but used in 103 and 110 engines.

Thoughts?

Thanks,
Dennis
I finished the build a couple of days ago and installed map 792 based on T-mans recommendation. Before I installed the map I changed the Speedometer Calibration to 45280 to correct for my 30T Trans pulley and also plugged in the offset values for the injectors to correct for my 5.3g/s injectors vs the 4.89g/s the map was made for. I also downloaded and installed the latest firmware revision (Release date 12-04-2012) and then initialized the ECM with the 30sec on/off procedure and hit the starter button. The bike started right up (which was a good sign) and settled into a steady (somewhat lumpy) idle.

After doing a series of "heat cycles" to get the piston rings settled in, I did an IAC calibration and then started the break-in procedure (300 miles under 3500rpm, then under 4500rpm to 1,000 miles) -- I now have 200 miles on it and have the following observations and comments:

The bikes valve train is as quiet (if not quieter) than stock, even though I have .660 lift cams and roller rockers. Other than the fact that T-man has pretty quiet cams, I also shimmed the the rockers to .003 - .004 clearance, used SE Tapered adjustable push rods, and used Woods directional lifters -- this combination produces a real quiet valve train. Of course I also had to clearance the upper rocker box, but the lower rocker box (and cam chest) were OK as is.

I noticed during the first 100 miles that the bike would "pop" on a hot restart. I put the bike back on the computer and noticed in the "basic settings" that "Initial Fuel Pulse" was set at 231% and "Cranking Fuel" was set at 6.8msec. My experience with other builds using Tmax indicated that these were respectively too high and too low. I lowered the "Initial Fuel Pulse" to 201% and raised the "Cranking Fuel" to 7.4msec. Result -- no more start-up popping and nearly instant starts.

In looking at the Front Cylinder Fuel vs TPS I noticed that many of the correction points were at or above the original (uncorrected 4.89g/s) map points, which means I must be flowing much more air than the engine this map was initially created for. I ran Autotune as recommended and then turned my attention to the idle speed.

The Idle Speed in "basic settings" was 944rpm -- I normally try to run around 900rpm or a little less, so I changed the setting to 880 rpm and did a IAC calibration. To my surprise, the Throttle Posion quickly dropped to 0, but the idles speed wouldn't drop much below 900rpm -- and it stayed "lumpy", varying between 880rpm and 1000rpm. I decided to put the idle setting back to 944rpm and do another IAC calibration. This time the throttle postion stayed above 0, but the idle stayed "lumpy", but stable, varying between 928rpm to 1044rpm. I think it's just the nature of the beast with the high lift cams, large throttle body, and large injectors. In reading the notes for map 792 it says "Slightly Lower Idle OK", but in my case 944rpm seems "about right".

I put another 120miles on it (220 miles total in 45 to 50 degree weather) keeping under 3500rpm, but with some more aggressive throttle movement in getting to 3500. The EFI manners seem darn near perfect at all speeds and throttle settings used. Performance is "Wow" when getting on the throttle even while keeping it under 3500rpm. I that the gas mileage seemed to be higher than when the bike was a stock 96". Normally after I fill the gas tank the "range" on the digital speedometer would indicate about 170 miles, but now it will indicate about 220 miles. On the first tank of gas (during break-in) I averaged a bit over 40mpg -- normally (with the 96" and 30T transmission pulley) I would get around 38 or 39mpg.

I put it back on the computer and looked at the Front Cylinder Fuel vs TPS and noticed that now the corrected points were falling both above and below the original 4.89g/s map points. I autotuned it once again and am now looking forward to continuing the break-in. Unfortunately the temperature here has dropped into the 20's and 30's so I'll have to wait on the weather (I generally don't ride if it's below 40 degrees).

Once i get this broken-in I'll put it on the Dyno to see where I'm at -- I'm hoping for something in the 120hp/120tq range, but we'll just have to wait and see. Which, brings up another point -- although T-man sells and "tolerates" Thundermax, I believe he's really a dyno man at heart. In my discussions with Tom Reiser (T-man) he clearly believes that the only way to really tune a bike (even with the Thundermax) is on the Dyno -- he doesn't really believe in the individual loading in a canned map, letting it autotune and getting an optimum result. Now whether an Autotuned result and an Optimum result are close enough together to negate the need for dyno tuning is a matter of conjecture. If my results are in the 120/120 range, I'll call it close enough -- if the results are significantly less, I may drive down to North Carolina and let T'man show me what I'm missing.

Dennis
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Old 01-26-2013, 07:19 AM   #4707 (permalink)
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Just changed from PCV to Thundermax because the PCV was giving me problems with cold starting to the point it would drain my battery on my 12 SG w/103cid. I have Rinehart Xtreme TD and SE A/C. Was told by local wrench I needed dyno tune. Did some research on Thundermax and took that road. Easy to install. Starts right up in 10 degree weather and forget about the dyno tunes. So far I only have about 100 miles on it, but I feel the difference in performance. So far nothing but praise for TM. Waiting on better weather to run some more.
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Old 01-26-2013, 07:23 AM   #4708 (permalink)
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Just changed from PCV to Thundermax because the PCV was giving me problems with cold starting to the point it would drain my battery on my 12 SG w/103cid. I have Rinehart Xtreme TD and SE A/C. Was told by local wrench I needed dyno tune. Did some research on Thundermax and took that road. Easy to install. Starts right up in 10 degree weather and forget about the dyno tunes. So far I only have about 100 miles on it, but I feel the difference in performance. So far nothing but praise for TM. Waiting on better weather to run some more.
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Old 01-26-2013, 07:27 AM   #4709 (permalink)
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Oops. Sorry bout the double post. I'm the new kid on the block. Getting familiar with the hood. Lol
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Old 02-03-2013, 11:17 AM   #4710 (permalink)
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TMAX Troubleshooting Manual

At the V-Twin Dealer Expo in Cincinnati yesterday I attended a Thundermax technical seminar where they handed out a TMAX Diagnostics/Maintenance guide which consisted of a compilation of problems and solutions which the Thundermax Tech/Development team has seen throughout the years. It contains some very good insights and troubleshooting tips. I scanned the manual into a pdf file which I've tried to attach to this message (it's 9mb) but if it doesn't attach correctly you can PM me and I'll e-mail you a copy.

One of the interesting items in the manual was a strong recommendation by Thundermax to install the SE Compensator on any Twin Cams that don't already have them (2010 and earlier bikes).
Attached Files
File Type: pdf TMAX_Guide.pdf (9.08 MB, 197 views)
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