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Old 07-19-2005, 08:25 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Backfire and popping

I have a friend who has a 2005 FLHTCUI with stage 1 and Vance & Hines pipes gets backfire and popping on decel.

He was told by two dealers that is normal??? I have a 2003 FLHTCUI with Stage 1 and Screaming Eagle slip ons and I dont have any popping or backfireing. Is this just a download map problem? The dealer recommends a power commander?? I was told that a power commander can void a warranty is that correct?

Thanks

Doug
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Old 07-20-2005, 09:52 AM   #2 (permalink)
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Powercommander can definitely help. I almost eliminated all popping and have eliminated the backfiring with my PCIIIUSB. A little more tweeking, and I'll get it right. Read some threads about the HD Stage I download, most everyone says they are lean. I never got one, don't have any firsthand knowledge.

I have heard stories from people that say a dealer won't honor a warrantee because of the PCIII. I also know of some HD dealers that install Power Commanders and only honor a warrantee on bikes with PC's they installed. I also have heard of people that disconnect their PC when they get to the dealership to avoid any issues with warrantee. I have a good friend of mine that told me that if I don't use HD oil and fluids, that I would void my warrantee. I tried to tell him this is BS, but some times it's best just to agree to disagree than to fight over nothing.

A Power Commander does not void warrantee unless it can be proven that the device directly caused some type of failure. So unless you or your friend set up the PC at some extreme values and starve the engine, I don't think you'll have any problems.
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Old 07-20-2005, 12:32 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by czar
Powercommander can definitely help. I almost eliminated all popping and have eliminated the backfiring with my PCIIIUSB. A little more tweeking, and I'll get it right. Read some threads about the HD Stage I download, most everyone says they are lean. I never got one, don't have any firsthand knowledge.
The PCIII may be the easiest way to go for you. It's not that the Harley maps are lean, it's that they were configured for specific Harley components which is why 9 times out of 10 they don't for after market parts. So while you enjoy no popping, it's because you're using all Harley components that the map was designed around. Your buddy has V&H which I would venture to guess are more open that the SE pipes you have, thus the engine would be lean.

Another choice is the SERT. I went this route because I have a 95" stage II big bore with Rineharts. The stage II touring map for me was way too lean, lots of popping. I had to keep tweaking until the engine ran the way I wanted it. The SERT requires more technical knowledge and is more versatile than the PCIII. But at least with the PCIII, I believe they have many canned maps to accomodate non-Harley configurations. The choice on which way to go is really how much you like tinkering with EFI. There are more pros and cons for both and I'm sure someone will point them out.
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Old 07-20-2005, 03:26 PM   #4 (permalink)
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I think I may know why.
Harley made a significant change to the Stage I Maps for '05

I ordered my '05 RKC with Stage I, SE Air Cleaner Kit, and SE Performance Slip-Ons. When I went to pick my bike up (Mid May) the serivice manager approached me and showed me a Technical Bulletin they had received the day before. In the bulletin, HD states the Stage I Map will now compensate for pipe changes, but not air cleaner. If the customer wants to change air cleaner AND pipes the bulletin states they must purchase a Screaming Eagle Race Tuner kit. It was explained to the service manager (he called to inquire) that the new maps are not as rich as the old ones in an effort to comply with the EPA. So the Map your friend got is quite a bit different than the one you got.


BTW....The bulletin further states that the use of the Screaming Eagle Race Tuner kit renders your bike "Not Street Legal".
How convenient for HD. Not street legal also translates to no damn warranty for the owner.
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Old 07-20-2005, 06:28 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Markr
I think I may know why.
Harley made a significant change to the Stage I Maps for '05

I ordered my '05 RKC with Stage I, SE Air Cleaner Kit, and SE Performance Slip-Ons. When I went to pick my bike up (Mid May) the serivice manager approached me and showed me a Technical Bulletin they had received the day before. In the bulletin, HD states the Stage I Map will now compensate for pipe changes, but not air cleaner. If the customer wants to change air cleaner AND pipes the bulletin states they must purchase a Screaming Eagle Race Tuner kit. It was explained to the service manager (he called to inquire) that the new maps are not as rich as the old ones in an effort to comply with the EPA. So the Map your friend got is quite a bit different than the one you got.
Maps for 2005s are different than previous years. My SERT supports models years 2001-2005. But all the 2005 models have unique maps.

However, my point above is still valid. Even if there were a difference between a stage 1 "dealer" map and a SERT map, going to the SERT map will still cause you issues as it is tuned for Harley parts. You'd just be lucky if you dropped in a stock map using after-market pipes and it ran fine. Heck, I think you'd be lucky if the canned map ran anything but lean with all Harley parts.
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Old 07-21-2005, 03:16 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rides99fatboy
Maps for 2005s are different than previous years. My SERT supports models years 2001-2005. But all the 2005 models have unique maps.

However, my point above is still valid. Even if there were a difference between a stage 1 "dealer" map and a SERT map, going to the SERT map will still cause you issues as it is tuned for Harley parts. You'd just be lucky if you dropped in a stock map using after-market pipes and it ran fine. Heck, I think you'd be lucky if the canned map ran anything but lean with all Harley parts.
Maybe I should have been clearer. I don't recommend the delaer maps or the canned maps included with the SERT kit.
The point I was making is that the '05 canned maps are far leaner than in previous years. I find them prety worthless.
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Old 07-21-2005, 08:38 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Here we go again, the PC will absolutely void the warranty if HD finds about it and the issue is engine related, it has no effect on the transmission , brake yada yada yada waranty. Th PC masks the error codes sent by the sensors to the computer thats how it works, it fools the computer. Many dealers install PC's if there is a problem they just don't tell HD there was a PC installed and submit the warranty until they get caught. The SERT absolutely will not void your warranty. my ECM unit went out, I had a SERT installed. HD replaced the ECM AND the SERT and paid for 7 hours of tuning to get the bike back to where it was before the ECM failed, I was running Mobil 1 synthetic with a K&N oil filter in the bike when they did the warranty NO HASSLES at all. The SERT maps are a starting point, the SERT gives you all the tools you need to create your own map based on the one that closest to what you have. You do however need a laptop and some initative to learn how to use the tool and not just download a map and go.
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Old 07-22-2005, 07:35 AM   #8 (permalink)
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I guess that would depend on who you ask. I called my dealer and spoke to the head of the service department. He told me that the PC absolutely "would not" void the warranty. Sounds to me like it depends on where you go.
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Old 07-22-2005, 10:15 AM   #9 (permalink)
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This is exactly why HD has regional warranty police for their corporation. They will come to a dealership unbeknown to the dealer and catch them in the act. HD Corporation does not warranty any damage caused by any piggyback system to their ECM's. If a dealership gets caught, and they will, it's a heavy price to pay!

You, or your bike could get caught in the middle of this....too much drama for something so easy to have done right the first time.

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Old 07-22-2005, 10:23 AM   #10 (permalink)
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...well, let me ask this:

If you screw up your engine by putting in the wrong settings using your SERT, will HD cover the engine work?

I'm pretty sure the answer is no. A PCIII isn't going to mess up anything on it's own.
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Old 07-22-2005, 11:34 AM   #11 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by czar
...well, let me ask this:

If you screw up your engine by putting in the wrong settings using your SERT, will HD cover the engine work?

I'm pretty sure the answer is no. A PCIII isn't going to mess up anything on it's own.
No.

It happened to someone either on this forum or another one I subscribe to.
You can't completely balme the MOCO for taking that stance.
What if an owner accidently leans out his ECM numbers to the point of causing damage ? (just an example)
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Old 07-22-2005, 12:38 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Markr
No.

It happened to someone either on this forum or another one I subscribe to.
You can't completely balme the MOCO for taking that stance.
What if an owner accidently leans out his ECM numbers to the point of causing damage ? (just an example)
What are you saying "No" to? I don't understand.

My point is that a SERT is no different than a Power Commander in that it is ultimately the user's responsibility to properly tune the ECM. If either device causes engine problems, then obviously MOCO isn't going to pay for your mistake. Just because a Power Commander is strapped to your bike does not mean MOCO will terminate your warrantee.
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Old 07-22-2005, 01:34 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Griffiss
. . . Th PC masks the error codes sent by the sensors to the computer thats how it works, it fools the computer. . .
For the last time, the PC does not "fool" the G.D. (re: gosh darn, there might be ladies present) computer. It is, for lack of a better term, downstream from the computer. There is absolutely no interaction between the PC and the computer. It takes the signals from the ECM and "adjusts" (based on the loaded map) the amount of fuel supplied to the engine accordingly (duration of injector opening, and other factors).

Last edited by Clayton; 07-22-2005 at 08:50 PM.
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Old 07-22-2005, 04:19 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by czar
What are you saying "No" to? I don't understand.

My point is that a SERT is no different than a Power Commander in that it is ultimately the user's responsibility to properly tune the ECM. If either device causes engine problems, then obviously MOCO isn't going to pay for your mistake. Just because a Power Commander is strapped to your bike does not mean MOCO will terminate your warrantee.
I am saying: No, the MOCO will not warranty your bike if you edit ECM to incorrect or dangerous values that cause damage to your bike. This may the one area a PC has an advantage over the SERT (IMHO). You can always disconnect a PC when taking your bike in to the dealer. You'd have to load a canned map presumably to CYA yourself with the SERT.

As pointed out, no ECM data is ever augmented by a PC or any other downstream add-on device. It simply modifies the data coming OUT of the ECM.
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Last edited by Markr; 07-22-2005 at 04:22 PM.
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Old 07-24-2005, 05:24 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Ok guys, if you remove the PC when you take your bike to the dealer, What about the stock ECM, aftermarket pipes and air cleaners we all have on our bikes. Can they then blame problems on the mods? I hate to beat a dead horse but these are expensive toys we all have and all I ever wanted was for my bike to sound like it should.
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