dynojetresearch ??? : V-Twin Forum: Harley Davidson Forums

brucen2son · 12-03-2008, 07:46 PM

Sir, I have an '07 Ultra with stage 2 (103 w/255 cams) Part of the stage 2 is a download which was done at that time too. I also have true duals (stock header) and wild pig slipons. I have had pinging since new and after stage 2, but with the power commander I can get in the high 30's mpg and only get roll on ping. Well most of the time, unless it's real hot (live in Tucson az)

I can not find an appropriate download for this configuration on the powercommander site as all downloads say stock ecm. The other thing I see is no one is removing timing on the maps.

I have had to remove up to 8 degrees of timing in cruise range (2500-3000rpm at 20% throttle) unless I want to pour a bunch of fuel and them mpg goes way down.

any suggestions? Thanks in advance. Bruce

**DynojetResearch** · 12-04-2008, 12:31 PM

Bruce,
what map are you currently using?

musicman4529 · 12-04-2008, 03:53 PM

Looking For A map for a 1996 rk 1340 with a stage1 97 ecm , it also has the air cleaner upgrade with a K&N filte rand a pcIIIusb ...with Rinehart true duals..i use the map M801-313 but that doesnt seem to work...i get lots of backfiring on decel and hesitation with throttle during shifts....Do You Think the M0802-384 map would work for this bike...any help would be great..Thanks Skip

brucen2son · 12-05-2008, 11:53 AM

I bought the powercommmander thru fuelmoto. He sent a 96 map then a 103 map which took out 4 deg of timing in cruise,both maps still ping. The fuel mileage went down w/103 map, so I pasted the 0-40% from the 96 map leaving the 60-100% alone. I check plugs frequently and have been playing with removing timing per Headquarters website. (keep in mind az summers) I also use an IR thermometer and front to rear is about 40 degrees F. different.
But now it's cooler and feel I can play a bit more.
When I look at some of the maps on PC website, they are using much more fuel than I am currently adding, but as I said I have removed 8 deg of timing at freeway cruise (75-85) and get 35 mpg. Maybe this is about all I can expect?
Also I only note roll on ping, but once throttle gets on the + side of 40% throttle I get little if any ping. I do have to run in lower gears and keep revs up, do to the gearing of the '07-'08 touring bikes.
I guess my question is I don't see the maps on PC website doing anything but adding a few degrees timing at 100% throttle, they just add fuel. It seems to me that all they are doing is reducing their mpg and running too rich. The Ultra is a big heavy bike and it seems it might be better to remove timing than keep adding fuel. In fact I wish someone make a compensator with a 30 tooth gear instead of the 34 tooth, because I feel this would be the correct fix for these bikes. Might just get better mpg too.

**DynojetResearch** · 12-09-2008, 10:34 AM

Bruce,
we do not design the maps to "add too much fuel and run too rich". We test both on the dyno and on the street. We set the AFR (air/fuel ratio) in cruise to about 13.8 to 1. We find this to be a good compromise between fuel economy and engine temp/smoothness. If you are running the bike overly lean just to help with fuel economy you will need to remove more timing than normal to try to correct for the pinging.

I am not clear as to just how good the fuel economy needs to be in order for you to be ok with it. You do have a cam'd 103" engine which is not the most fuel efficient choice.

You also mention you have "true duals' then say "stock header". Have you cut up/plugged a stock head pipe assembly to make a home made true dual setup? We had a bike here that was do that way it we could never get it to run correctly. After going back to the standard headpipes the bike ran very well. Perhaps this is a place to look?

If you can post the map that you have tried that runs the best (fuel economy aside) I will see if we can make some changes. You need to be realistic about the fuel economy. I don't think this is going to be a 50 mpg build.

claydbal · 12-09-2008, 04:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DynojetResearch

Bruce,
we do not design the maps to "add too much fuel and run too rich". We test both on the dyno and on the street. We set the AFR (air/fuel ratio) in cruise to about 13.8 to 1. We find this to be a good compromise between fuel economy and engine temp/smoothness. If you are running the bike overly lean just to help with fuel economy you will need to remove more timing than normal to try to correct for the pinging.

I am not clear as to just how good the fuel economy needs to be in order for you to be ok with it. You do have a cam'd 103" engine which is not the most fuel efficient choice.

You also mention you have "true duals' then say "stock header". Have you cut up/plugged a stock head pipe assembly to make a home made true dual setup? We had a bike here that was do that way it we could never get it to run correctly. After going back to the standard headpipes the bike ran very well. Perhaps this is a place to look?

If you can post the map that you have tried that runs the best (fuel economy aside) I will see if we can make some changes. You need to be realistic about the fuel economy. I don't think this is going to be a 50 mpg build.

a well matched build (including exhaust) will get you in the mid 40's------with a great tune. something to consider, i can cruise at 80 and get around 48 mpg. drop cruise speed to 65 and i get 38-42 mpg. reason-------cam,heads,pipe, gearing. motor is not fully on the cam at 2300 rpm

brucen2son · 12-09-2008, 05:11 PM

Ok, here is what I have. Stage 2 (103 w/255 cams) Along with Stage 2 download.
Stock header pipes with a fullsac true dual set up(replaces the "Y" pipe). Making it true duals.
Using wild pig slip on mufflers.
I would think fuel mileage in the low to mid 40's should be about right, freeway type driving. Currently am running around 35-37mpg.
I started with richer maps which got mileage down to about 29/32 mpg, but when I removed a certain percent of fuel, found a similar percent of mileage increase. And didn't notice a decrease in performance. The thing which helped with the ping most was removing some timing. Although I always still have a small amount of roll on ping.
As I said now things are cooling off, I feel I may be able to play around a bit more than in the heat of the summer.
If you might suggest a starting map I am willing to give it a go.

**DynojetResearch** · 12-09-2008, 06:02 PM

It would be very helpful to see the map that you are currently using. Can you please post it?

As you say your target is low 40's and you are at about 37 now I think we might be able to get there faster if we start with what you have.

Also, exactly where is the pigning happening? I will look at your map, but some details would help.

brucen2son · 12-12-2008, 02:06 PM

this is the current map. I believe I'm getting around 33 mpg in town... The temp from front to rear cylinder is about 40 degrees F. higher on rear cyl. At idle in driveway front cyl is hotter. Plugs look good too.
I am looking at the 55 map on the website, as I think the setup is pretty close. Only difference is I have K & N filter (replaced paper one in stage 1 air cleaner)
And I have wild Pig slip ons.
Thanks, Bruce

**HDWRENCH** · 12-13-2008, 07:55 AM

You really should have the bike correctly tuned, we just tuned a few bikes that had the fuelmoto maps, both where extremely rich, and poor fuel mileage , more like a big block chevy truck with 4.10 gears.
If the tuner tells you that only tuning front cylinder is ok look for another tuner. The copy and paste is incorrect, the avg of the two is another incorrect way of tuning. You need to have both front and rear tuned, then you can work on the timing maps. properly tuned there is no real reason for pulling large amount of timing. The stock hd maps are not what you would call an agressive timing curve.

brucen2son · 12-13-2008, 09:51 AM

HDwrench, did you finally get your Dyno?
Also, What are your thoughts on these '07/'08 big touring bikes, with respect to gearing? Run the 30 tooth Trans output with a new belt and speedo correction? OR??

brucen2son · 02-14-2009, 07:03 PM

bump--hdwrench or dynojet research..??

**HDWRENCH** · 02-15-2009, 09:55 AM

Are you speaking of FBW?? Once tuned the customers are not telling me that they are too tall as far as gearing. The TTS will be the only tuner that will allow you to alter the VSS if you decide to add the 30 tooth pulley and belt. I know that some have not replaced the belt but no such luck for us. Belt had no room to be adjusted at a later date.

Yes we have a new 250i with eddie brake.

**DynojetResearch** · 02-18-2009, 02:35 PM

HDWRENCH,
if you want to knock our products and advertise a competing one I would appreciate if you would start a new thread. I do not post in other companies threads to use ours. Just asking for a little common courtesy.

**DynojetResearch** · 02-18-2009, 02:46 PM

brucen2son,
sorry I have not replied sooner. I have been out of town at two trade shows and have not had a chance to get back to forum before now.

This thread seems to have gone off on a bit of a tangent. Maybe we should start over.

I looked at your map and am suprised that you need to take that much timing out in order to keep it from pinging. If you load all zeros in the timing map how badly does it ping?

As you noticed,the M812-055 map was done with a stock ECM. As we can raise the rev limit with the PCIII we no longer test stock, Stage 1, and Stage 2 ECM settings.
It is quite a bit richer than the map you are currently using.

In your last post you mentioned that you replaced the stock air filter with a K&N. You do have an open style airbox, right? I just want to make sure as a stock style backing plate air box is extremely restrictive.

Any chance you would have your bike in Vegas? We might be able to just knock out a quick map for you if you are in town.

Also, what are you using to monitor front/rear head temps?