PCIII pinging for a 2006 Road Glide and 807-210 map

[buddyrm]

I have a 2006 Road Glide that has a K&N stock replacement air cleaner and a screaming eagle exhaust. I started to see evidence of peppering on the rear cylinder spark plug (evidence of pre detonation). I do have pinging under hard load. I do use 91 octance and have the 807-210 map installed. I am a bit concerned about the fuel settings above 40 % are in the negative and when it is hot may be causing my pinging. Is there a reasosn that the settings are negative in the 40 % above 2500 RPM.? Should it be not positive for all settings? or at least 0 % for those settings? (Factory setting). The plugs did show that they are on the lean side. I did a long trip at cruise normally at about 80 MPH which is about 10-20% throttle at 2800-3200RPM. This range indicates a positive fuel addition. But the higher the throttle setting goes the leaner it gets. Any suggestions? Should I set the negative values to 0%

[DynojetResearch]

buddyrm,
as a side note I would really recommend you replace the stock aircleaner assembly with a open style. There is quite a bit of power to be gained.

To answer your question about negative fuel adjustments. There are situations where the bike ca be richer that idle. You cannot say that bikes only ever need to have fuel added.

Now, with your bike and the fact you have altered the exhaust you may need to add fuel at the larger throttle openings. For sure if you change the aircleaner you will need to.

The map you are running also has some timing added at wide open throttle. This may have been too mcuh for your riding situation.

I have attached a modified map for you to try. Let me know how it works.

[buddyrm]

Originally Posted by DynojetResearch

buddyrm,
as a side note I would really recommend you replace the stock aircleaner assembly with a open style. There is quite a bit of power to be gained.

To answer your question about negative fuel adjustments. There are situations where the bike ca be richer that idle. You cannot say that bikes only ever need to have fuel added.

Now, with your bike and the fact you have altered the exhaust you may need to add fuel at the larger throttle openings. For sure if you change the aircleaner you will need to.

The map you are running also has some timing added at wide open throttle. This may have been too mcuh for your riding situation.

I have attached a modified map for you to try. Let me know how it works.

Interesting map. I see that the fuel trend is basically the same between the 210 map and this one except that there is a 8 to 10 % increase at all throttle settings from 40 % on. Is this due to the free flowing exhaust? I will try it and see how the plugs look after some hard riding. Hope the slight pre detonation that I had did not too much engine damage.


Why had there been negative values in the first place, because the exhaust was too restrictive? How do you feel about modifing the back plate for more air intake with the K&N stock replacement.? I know the filter is able to handle 200CFM and that the stock engine with the standard stroke and cams are in the 180 max CFM. So no point in putting a bigger filter but just make sure that holes can handle the air flow for 200CFM minimum. Any comments?


On a side note, does the power commander affect the ECM's ability to detect the ION sensing circuit for knock detection? I am curious because it should have sensed the knock and retarded the timing as required? I am interested to know if the power commander sits in the loop to affect the ECM's ION sensing ability for knock detection. It would be sad if that ability is lost on the Delphi systems with the PCIII.


Also I have been playing around in the 0% setting to remove the decel popping and it seemed to work with a setting of 15 % for the range of 750-2800. Unfortunately it also affects the idle RPM when the bike is hot. I noticed that the idle RPM goes up after a hot restart (1200-1500RPM) (let the bike sit for 10 minutes after riding for an hour) and it takes a minute or so to settle down. I guess the 15 % at 1000 RPM is affecting the idle since there is a boost of fuel in the 750-1500 RPM. Do you recommend not adding fuel in the 750-1500 RPM and just add at the popping RPM (transition down from 2800 down to 1800RPM, this is when the popping happens on sharp decel 0 - 2 % throttle.

[DynojetResearch]

Unless you stayed in the throttle for an extended period while the bike was detonating there is little chance of any damage being done. HD air cooled engines have been living with light detonation for a very long time.

I altered the fuel map based on your feedback/comments. You said you had an issue in the larger throttle openings and that your concerned about the "negative numbers" so I adjusted that area. I also retarded the timing from the base map settings.

As I posted previously, the ECM's base map we found to be too rich for best power output. As this is the way HD set it you cannot blame the exhaust. It was the choice of the engineers.

You can open up the stock backing plate of the aircleaner if you prefer. The filter is fine, but more overall airflow from the housing is necessary (a map change will be required).

The ION sensing is not disabled with the PCIII. During our dyno testing we found the system is not instantaneous. Detaonation is audible for a period before the system retards the timing.

For the popping, keep the 0% fuel adjustments above1750 rpm. You should not need any below that for the popping and as you mention, it affects idle speed.

[buddyrm]

Originally Posted by DynojetResearch

Unless you stayed in the throttle for an extended period while the bike was detonating there is little chance of any damage being done. HD air cooled engines have been living with light detonation for a very long time.

I altered the fuel map based on your feedback/comments. You said you had an issue in the larger throttle openings and that your concerned about the "negative numbers" so I adjusted that area. I also retarded the timing from the base map settings.

As I posted previously, the ECM's base map we found to be too rich for best power output. As this is the way HD set it you cannot blame the exhaust. It was the choice of the engineers.

You can open up the stock backing plate of the aircleaner if you prefer. The filter is fine, but more overall airflow from the housing is necessary (a map change will be required).

The ION sensing is not disabled with the PCIII. During our dyno testing we found the system is not instantaneous. Detaonation is audible for a period before the system retards the timing.

For the popping, keep the 0% fuel adjustments above1750 rpm. You should not need any below that for the popping and as you mention, it affects idle speed.

OK I understand the detonating part. It was just a bit concerned when I say those tiny black specks on the insolator and when I examined them closer, I noticed that it was silver in color ( probably aluminum from the top of the piston). So naturally I asked the question about how damaging it can be. I guess it was just mild pinging.

As for the 0 % setting below 1750, I agree 100%.



When I open up the air cleaner back plate, what map should I go too? Any recommandations based on the map you sent?

Thanks for the expert advise, it is greatly appreciated. You guys are number 1 in my books. Great forum.

[DynojetResearch]

With the changes I made the map I sent you will actually work pretty well once you change the backing plate of the aircleaner. It is slightly richer than the M807-218 map that I would normally recommend.

[buddyrm]

Great. I will try and let you know.

Thanks

[buddyrm]

Originally Posted by DynojetResearch

buddyrm,
as a side note I would really recommend you replace the stock aircleaner assembly with a open style. There is quite a bit of power to be gained.

To answer your question about negative fuel adjustments. There are situations where the bike can be richer that idle. You cannot say that bikes only ever need to have fuel added.

Now, with your bike and the fact you have altered the exhaust you may need to add fuel at the larger throttle openings. For sure if you change the aircleaner you will need to.

The map you are running also has some timing added at wide open throttle. This may have been too mcuh for your riding situation.

I have attached a modified map for you to try. Let me know how it works.

OK... This map seems to be better but I still am getting some pinging with 91 fuel through the 2800-3200 RPM transition under load with 25-40% throttle in 2nd gear acceleration. I switched to 94 octane and the pinging has stopped. 94 Octane is not readily available everywhere. So 91 should be the normal octane that I need to tune too.

So looking at the map in this range. There is only a positive setting of 3 to 8 % fuel addition. Not much considering using the screaming eagle exhaust and the K&N 1499 replacement filter. Air Flow should be not to restrictive at that setting so I assume that the engine is breathing better at that RPM range.

Is this something I should be concerned about? Looking at the fuel trend in that RPM range and throttle setting, it seems there is a quick dropoff of fuel deliver that in my opinion maybe causing all my grief. If indeed there should be a fuel dropoff at that transition with the Dyno testing, it should be more a gradual tappering and not as drastic as it is now. see attachement image.


I understand that pressure waves maybe at play that require the use of less fuel delivery at a certain RPM than others and this would account for the radical alteration of the fuel delivery. But there are different models of screaming eagle exhaust which mine happens to be the 65299 model. This one may have radically different pressure wave characteristics than the posted maps for sceaming eagle exhaust slipons.

Anyway in you opinion, would it be not safe to make it more a gradual tappering transition in fuel delivery at that RPM range then it is now to help the pinging? Since at cruise speeds at 80 MPH, the 2800 to 3200 RPM setting, the throttle lives in the 10 to 15 % range usually and the fuel delivery seems to be OK for those settings.

The purple line in the attached image would make more sense as a less agressive tappering off of fuel delivery to ease the pinging.


Please let me know what you comments are on the above.

Also on a side note: How do we know that the PC3 I have is within normal operating parameters?. What I mean is that it is acurate in adding exactly 20 % more when required and that timing is accurately controlled being the the PC3 acts as the "man in the middle" design. Is there any built in diagnostic that can be used to determine correct operating signal margins.? Does it do its own diagnostic at power on and report any abnormalities? I am a software & hardware design engineer and that would explain all these technical questions.

Feel fee to add as much technical detail as you feel comfortable in forwarding.

[DynojetResearch]

buddyrm,
you are overthinking this a bit. One thing you need to remember is that we (the PCIII) is adjusting the base fuel curve. This is not a replacement ECM.

In a replacement ECM the map will look more ore less linear. Since we adjust what is already there the fuel changes can look "choppy". If there is a rich area in the base ECM map then you will see small numbers (or even negative numbers) there, where there may be larger numbers on either side. Fuel changes are not always going to "taper".

If the bike is running well aside from the pining why not just adjust the timing in that area instead of the fuel? You can try either. Adding fuel may solve the issue, but it could also affect fuel economy.

The software is easy enough to use, just try increase the fuel in the ranges you are concerned about. I would try 5% increments. Otherwise, retard the timing by 3 degrees.

I think your last question boils down to "how do I know your product is working"? If you are that concerned and an engineer you can always hook up a scope to it and watch the input and output singles so that you can verify the pulse width offsets. With a 4 channel scope you could also watch the coil in/coil out vs. crank position if you really want to be convinced we are doing what we say.

In simplistic terms, if there is an internal error in the unit the lowest LED on the face will blink and an error will be reported in software when the bike is running.

[buddyrm]

Originally Posted by DynojetResearch

buddyrm,
you are overthinking this a bit. One thing you need to remember is that we (the PCIII) is adjusting the base fuel curve. This is not a replacement ECM.

In a replacement ECM the map will look more ore less linear. Since we adjust what is already there the fuel changes can look "choppy". If there is a rich area in the base ECM map then you will see small numbers (or even negative numbers) there, where there may be larger numbers on either side. Fuel changes are not always going to "taper".

If the bike is running well aside from the pining why not just adjust the timing in that area instead of the fuel? You can try either. Adding fuel may solve the issue, but it could also affect fuel economy.

The software is easy enough to use, just try increase the fuel in the ranges you are concerned about. I would try 5% increments. Otherwise, retard the timing by 3 degrees.

I think your last question boils down to "how do I know your product is working"? If you are that concerned and an engineer you can always hook up a scope to it and watch the input and output singles so that you can verify the pulse width offsets. With a 4 channel scope you could also watch the coil in/coil out vs. crank position if you really want to be convinced we are doing what we say.

In simplistic terms, if there is an internal error in the unit the lowest LED on the face will blink and an error will be reported in software when the bike is running.

You are correct. I could always pull out my Scope and do the tests. I just wanted to know if it indeed has some built in diagnostic to cross check that everything is in working condition.

As for the base map adjustment, you are right. I just find it strange that the base curve would be so har off to have the need to reduce the fuel delivery in some places by as much at 20 %. Anyway I will try the timing route. First I will throw in a new set of plugs in just to make sure thats OK and then llok at the timings.


Appreciate all the help and information.