PC3 USB on '08 Ultra

[Montyl]

Recently, I put Rinehart Tru-Duals, Big Sucker, and PC3 USB on my '08 FLHTCU (thanx Eastern Performance Cycle), loaded one of the advanced maps for my configuration from DynoJet. After a little bit of initial concern we upped the idle mixture for the rear cylinder and it ran pretty good. But to ease that nagging little doubt in the back of my mind I took it in to a local Harley shop to be tuned on their Dyno. Now I am not so impressed.
When I have ridden this so far it has been solo, and not much of a load (other then my fat #$%). Mostly between 50-60 mph, between 2-2500rpm. A couple of times as much as 72-73mph, but that was only about 30 miles. I am kind of wondering if maybe the operator didnt get a little heavy handed on the rich side.
Attached is the before map, after map, dyno chart and mileage chart.

[DynojetResearch]

Montyl,
let's start with how the bike ran when you installed the map from our web site.

Did you have any running issues (decel popping, hesitation, detonation)?

Did you install the O2 Eliminators when you installed the PCIII?

How does the bike run now (with the new map)? Is your main concern fuel economy at this point or are you now having performance issues since the remap?

As far as the dyno run you posted is concerned, was the "before" run done with the bike stock or only after the remap? The AFR graph does not appear to be difffent enough to explain the large increase in power.

Did you asked the shop to do an "Advanced Map"? Looks like they only tested one cylinder.

[Montyl]

Decel popping yes a little, but my main concern was where is it running as far as the AFR. I wanted to get away from the lean side, and unfortunately the only way to find out truly where you are running other then looking at spark plugs is on the dyno. And also when I got on the freeway and would run 75-80 my fuel mileage would drop through the floor.

Yes installed both eliminators.

I haven't really paid lots of attention to the decel but there doesn't seem to be a big difference. And yes one of my big concerns is the MPG numbers, I would expect a decrease of a couple of of miles due to a richer mixture but not going from the low 40's to the mid-low 30's.

On the Dyno run, the before run was with your advanced map.

I was not smart enough before they ran the bike to ask if they would do and Advanced Map, it was only after I got home and looked at what they had done did I find out they only mapped one cylinder. When I asked them why they do only one they claim that there is not enough differences between the front and rear to justify it.

do notice now though that when it is warm here and the bike is hot that it wants to hesitates a little from a dead stop/idle.

[DynojetResearch]

Montyl,
you cannot tune a modern injected bike by plug color with todays fuels. Aside from the plug color, what made you think that the bike was running lean with the map we developed?

There is NO WAY that the difference in power that you show in the graph was the difference between the two maps. The AFR shows to be almost identicle. The graphs shows almost a 10 hp increase. This is not the same bike being compared.

So, getting back to the original map you ran from us, did the bike run poorly? What kind of MPG did you get before the remap at the HD dealer?

Also, you mention that you are worried about the bike being lean with our map, but also say the mileage dropped at high speed cruise. I am guess I am trying to find out exactly what you are trying to achieve.

[Montyl]

As far as lean or rich on your map, I was not able to tell where it ran, which is 1 reason for the Dyno run. Second reason was I was worried that the rear cylinder may be running a little lean, again no way to tell without a dyno. Third the huge decrease in fuel mileage on the freeway after going from stock to intake/exhaust mods. As you have said on EFI bike you need a dyno and equipment to really know what is going on.

As for the gragh if the before and after are not the same bike I have no way to tell if that is a truism or not since customers are not allowed in the shop for insurance reasons, so i was not able to watch what all went on. All I do know is that is what the technician gave me as the results. If you want to get a hold of me off-line I will tell you who the shop and tech were that ran it and you can question them yourself.

As far as the original map from you that I used, the reasons for having the bike dyno's are: I was not able to tell where it ran, which is 1 reason for the Dyno run. Second reason was I was worried that the rear cylinder may be running a little lean, again no way to tell without a dyno. Third the huge decrease in fuel mileage on the freeway after going from stock to intake/exhaust mods.

Did I think there was a problem with your map, no. But I wanted knowledge that there were no issues with the AFR, hence the dyno run.

As for MPG number they are all documented on the pic titles FLHTCU Mileage.jpg, including when the mods and dyno run were done.

My ultimate goal with the Dyno, was where IS this bike at with AFR, and why since doing the intake/exhaust mods has my high speed cruise MPG dropped.

Again without a dyno run, I used your map and had no real idea where it was running. I had it ran and showed you the chart they gave me. I looked at their map and your map and found what I think are huge differences which lead me to question their tech/dyno. My MPG numbers somewhat support my questioning of their tech/dyno in that I THINK they went way to the rich side. Thus I present my questions/concerns to you at DynoJet since the PC and Dyno are your products and you would have a more intimate knowledge of them then the shop here.

[DynojetResearch]

This is a good chance to clear up a few things about mapping and dyno runs.

First, just seeing the wide open throttle dyno run tells you nothing about the overall fuel curve. Unless you graph all of the various throttle openings you will not be able to judge the overall fuel curve. We generally set our HD maps to be about 13.6 to 13.8 to 1 AFR in the cruise range, while big throttle openings are around 13.0 to 13.2 to 1. This gives you good overall fuel economy and throttle response without excessive heat during cruise. We have had a number of people say our base maps are "too rich" (because more fuel economy is wanted, but I do not believe we have ever been accused of having maps that are too lean.

This is why I asked "why do you think the bike is running lean". What made you concerned that the rear cylinder needed more fuel at idle?

Since your setup matched our specs in the map I am not sure why you felt the settings we provide would be so far off.

When you had the map done by the shop did you ask for a specific AFR to be used? If not, did they tell you what they used?

As far as the dyno graph goes, I have been with Dynojet for almost 11 years and have being tuning for years before that. All I am trying to tell you is that the graph is not a realistic comparison of the "before and after" mapping. Use this information as you like. I am not going to get into the middle of it with the shop. You cannot have identicle AFR graphs, but a 10 hp increase with the same bike. The 31's at idle in the "shop map" are way too much and should be taken out.

Your MPG chart show fluctuating figures even after the pipes were insalled. Riding style and speed have alot to do with mileage, so this chart does not help much as tuning is concerned.

If you look at our map you can see that there are not HUGE numbers there. The number represent a percentage change to stock. If you see a 10 that means we add 10% fuel over stock. A negative number makes the fuel curve leaner. A "0" is the same as the stock fuel curve. This makes it pretty easy to make small adjustments on your own in search of better economy.

In the end, I am just trying to help you and answer your questions.
I have attached a slightly modified map for you to try. It has some fuel added to decel to reduce decel popping. I have adjusted the higher speed cruise a bit leaner to help with fuel economy in that range.

As for the rest of the map, I would not be concerned with it being overly lean. We do not develop our map database that way. Each combination we post is put on a test bike and dyno tuned. While many say that "each bike is different", you would be surprised just how close mutilpe bikes are with the same parts listed when our maps are tested by ourselves and others.

[claydbal]

now that is what i call support! great thread dynojet!!

[Montyl]

I appreciate your time and efforts, beleive me, nothing is more frustrating to me then having to depend on others to give me information, without being able to see what is happening.

Something else that has had me kind of curious but never thought to ask, sort of until now.

On this chart for their initial run it shows a drop off at approx 5650, which doesn't seem right if the initial map already loaded into the PC when I turned it over to the shop was yours with Rev Xtend enabled, shouldn't the initial run gone out nearly as far as the custom one?

Isnt troubleshooting from afar wonderful?

It will probably be tomorrow before I get a chance to put this map in, and I realize that my mileage numbers there isn't alot of them to base things on, but I know that they are not what they used to be especially my test ride yesterday which was specifically to check mileage, and a few other things and it just didn't feel right.

If things go right tomorrow next week I will post feedback on what I find.

Thanx

[DynojetResearch]

Yes, if the Rev Xtend was turned on before you gave the bike to the shop it should have rev'd up to 6,200 RPM. This was another thing I noticed about the graph you posted.

If Rev Xtend was not turned on then the graph looks ok as the stock limit on that bike is 5,500 rpm.


Again, in regards to mileage, the bike is not going to ever get the same mileage as it did when it was completely stock. Increasing the airflow through the engine and producing more power is going to use more fuel.

If fuel economy is the main focus here and you can live with a decrease in performance we can make the map even leaner than the one I posted for you. Engine temps will increase and throttle reponse will suffer, but we might be able to get you another few mpg. Let me know how the map I posted for you works and we can go from there.

[Montyl]

I am not expecting stock numbers, because the bike is no longer stock. However after making the intake exhaust mods I think I was getting better numbers then I am now after the dyno run, which were pretty consistent with what I was getting beforehand. Now with the Dyno run the numbers have gone down.

So, I have been trying to download the map you posted and I have yet to be able to, I keep getting a message that downloads are only available to Premium Memebers, which I guess is better then a Lifetime Member? So worst case I will go back to the map that was loaded into the PC before the Dyno run and run that for a week and see if I am halucinating or not.

Using the Power Commander 3 USB - 3.2.1 software off your website how can I verify the Rev Xtend setting? Ctrl + F doesnt do anything for me.

[DynojetResearch]

Montyl,
if you PM me your email address I can email you the map. In order to download from this forum you must be a paid member.

If you are connected to the bike and have it running using the Cntrl F command should open another window. There should be a "check box" and the Rev Xtend rpm listed next to it. The bike must be running in order to see it (or you need to use the 9 volt adapter, but do not turn on the ignition).

[cardboard]

Hope its O.K. to post this here. I have a 2008 FLHT, notised PC has a wide band power commander, will this unit fit my bike and will it auto tune itself. Thanks.

[Montyl]

Hey cardboard, I have no problem with you piggy-backing on my post, but if you want a faster answer it would probably be better to start your own post under the EFI forum.

And I am no expert but I have seen nothing about DynoJet Power Commanders having any Auto-Tune capabilities.

However so far they have pretty Sierra Hotel customer support.

[claydbal]

cardboard is referring to the Wideband Commander. it is a monitoring device, not capable of tuning.

[Montyl]

Ok, the jury has returned. This weekend I was pretty consistent at 40-43mpg, which is pretty good considering I wasnt riding for gas mileage. All weekend it ran good felt strong even at low RPM (2000-2500). The previous weekend I did 1 run specifically trying for good mileage and was getting low to mid 30's.

DR, for the map you sent me/advanced maps what AFR do you have them set at?