Zippers Thundermax Auto Tune

[SEDELUXE]

keep us posted guys on how well this works. i have been following this thread very closely and am very interested in the results are sure a lot are.
as far as a dyno tune there are guys out there who are very good at what they do with the sert and pc3 but none in my area. and as far a a dyno for braggin rights it does far more then that.
1. fuel milage
2. performance
3. engine reliability : a properly tuned motor will run cooler and better then a poorley tuned one.
4. braggin rights : i put it here but it really does not matter thats why its last

[GPO03FatBoy]

Originally Posted by hjdistl

How many of us ride our bikes the way they are tuned on a dyno?

NOT

In most instances a dyno sheet is only for "Bragging Rights"

They only dyno I pay attention to is the one that is integrated into my butt.

PS. Mine tells me my ThunderMax Autotued 06 Dyna SG is doing great.

Well, for an EFI bike, I'd say that most people (who've gotten a full tune) ride it exactly like it is tuned. The dyno numbers most people post are just the WOT readings. Granted those are sometimes tweaked for bragging rights, but they are also the way the bike responds when you grab full throttle for passing. The bulk of a full dyno tune though is spent balancing the AFR readings (or VE values in a SERT world) across all of the throttle settings from 0 to 80% and the RPM bands from 0 to redline. It's the full dyno tune that really keeps a bike from running lean under cruise, or stumbling when you ride two up or want to pass. IMHO an EFI bike lives like it is dyno tuned, but I think many people don't realize this because they are so focused on the WOT graphs that comprise just the last bit of a tune, but are carried away at the end of most tuning sessions. 'course this is just my HO....

edited note: and after all this, I see SEdeluxe said this in a couple of quick lines, but then that's why he is so good....

[hjdistl]

Originally Posted by GPO03FatBoy

Well, for an EFI bike, I'd say that most people (who've gotten a full tune) ride it exactly like it is tuned. The dyno numbers most people post are just the WOT readings. Granted those are sometimes tweaked for bragging rights, but they are also the way the bike responds when you grab full throttle for passing. The bulk of a full dyno tune though is spent balancing the AFR readings (or VE values in a SERT world) across all of the throttle settings from 0 to 80% and the RPM bands from 0 to redline. It's the full dyno tune that really keeps a bike from running lean under cruise, or stumbling when you ride two up or want to pass. IMHO an EFI bike lives like it is dyno tuned, but I think many people don't realize this because they are so focused on the WOT graphs that comprise just the last bit of a tune, but are carried away at the end of most tuning sessions. 'course this is just my HO....

edited note: and after all this, I see SEdeluxe said this in a couple of quick lines, but then that's why he is so good....

Both you and SEDELUXE have just validated what everyone has been saying about the Thundermax with the AutoTune.

u!!

You get
1. fuel milage
2. performance
3. engine reliability : a properly tuned motor will run cooler and better then a poorly tuned one.


Plus when you make a change to any of the components it automatically adjust to the changes without additional cost and running back to the tuner.

Technology sure is great.

The reasons I went with the Thundermax with the Autotune were the 3 items above, plus the long range cost will be less than a SERT and 2 trips to a tuner.

Plus you can try it for 30 days and if it does not work you are out of only your time and some shipping costs.

It just does not get much better than that.

Okay, I was kidding. A good cigar, bottle of scotch and the lady of the house in the right mood.

Have a great one guys

[GPO03FatBoy]

Originally Posted by hjdistl

Both you and SEDELUXE have just validated what everyone has been saying about the Thundermax with the AutoTune.

u!!

I don't think anyone disagrees with the fact that the closed loop systems give a good safe economical tune and a smooth riding bike. They just don't seem to be set to peak performance at WOT. Not everyone cares about peak WOT performance though, so the closed loop self-tuning systems seem to be excellent choices for the masses, they don't however seem to replace the dyno and a good tuner, for peaking performance.

No disagreements here, the closed loop systems are good systems, they just don't seem to be peak performers without dyno time.

[SEDELUXE]

i like the new system thats out in the zippers unit. i beleive by time the moco finally comes out with a unit similar to it the after market will be light years ahead of the moco that it will be playing catch up again. Lets face it guys none of us brought our bikes to be power hungry animals its just something we felt the motors needed. MORE POWER. We as consumers do not ask for much when were plucking down 20 grand for a bike. we just want to know when we bring it to a dealer they ae suppose to know how to fix it. thats all. Most guys never go past pipes and air cleaner and beleive me thats fine by me. as a matter of fact i have even been giving second thoughts about turning my bike back to as stock as i can to trade it in and get a street glide. i kinda like the new 96in bikes. but once again its that power thing i think by the spring time zippers will have this thing pretty well worked out and after my tune i might even get one my self. i all ready have a 2into1 lined up im just waiting to hear how it works on a more radical build. one with larger cams and t/b. so keep us posted im glad that things are finally going the way they should.

[hjdistl]

Originally Posted by GPO03FatBoy

No disagreements here, the closed loop systems are good systems, they just don't seem to be peak performers without dyno time.

You hit on several good points here.

But here is the thing that I have an issue with (not with you)

"they just don't seem to be peak performers without dyno time."

I do not think anyone with a SERT and dyno time can honestly and truthfully say the peak performance is better than a closed loop system that has been tweaked. (Please refer to Post#74 in this thread) because unless you have ran both side by side under the same conditions no way do you know.

Sorry, theory does not cut it because in theory a helicopter and a bumble bee are not supposed to be able to fly. Of course everyone know that a helicopter does not fly the just beat the air into submission.

Here is the challenge I have for both a tuner and Zippers. Someone please do a heads up comparison. No guessing like many are doing and making assumptions (We all know the 3 key words in assume).

I would like to see a typical 95 build that has been tuned by an average SERT Tuner and a dyno run sheet from it. I say average, because from what I read most are average (not slinging mud at anybody, just repeating what I have read. I know there are some excellent ones out there)

Then the same bike with a closed loop system set up like in Post #74 (any owner of a TM w AT can do that) and a dyno run sheet from it.

Maybe we can get one of the big name Motorcycle Magazines to do just such a test. (Maybe the one the forum is named after???)

I think it would be one hell of a shoot out.

What do you think??

PS in the 30's and still ridding. Wife thinks I am nutzzz but then again she has though that for many years.

[SEDELUXE]

your right both systems hold water if you know what i mean. i know that even closed loop systems on cars with performance mods still get dyno time. for the tweaking..
now with the avg tuner the closed loop will probley imo beat it hands down. now thats just my opinion.
were not talking about a top notch tuner were talking avg tuner. a top notch tuner will take about 3-5 hrs of dyno time to tune the bike to performance . you have to remember a good tuner lets the bike tell him what the bike needs.Not what he thinks it needs. a whole lot of experience goes into a top tuner. He has to know just what to do with the sert and pc3 to get the max out of a good solid build.
for just the avg tuner and closed loop i think the closed loop will come out on top.
as far as a top notch tuner imo i think the sert will still remain top.
but then you also have to factor in all kinds of conditions,heat humidity and dyno. i dont think any system is a cure all but in the future zippers is on the right path. given time and technology it will get you where you want to be.
but a sert or pc3 in the right hands well lets face it these guys are scarce but if you do happen to know one its like money in the bank.....

[Paniolo]

Originally Posted by hjdistl

I would like to see a typical 95 build that has been tuned by an average SERT Tuner and a dyno run sheet from it.

Then the same bike with a closed loop system

That can be done right now. All you need is someone who just bought the Zippers Closed Loop system. The Zippers ECM comes with a preloaded base MAP that is "close". Then have the owner disable the system from the closed loop setting, and go off to someone who knows how to tune the Thunder-Max software. Get their dyno spec sheet and part one is done.

Then have the owner reload the original base MAP back into the ECM (writing over the dyno tune), enable the closed loop system, and start riding it. After a the bike has settled into it's own tune, run it on the same dyno.

The results sure would make interesting material for discussion. But you might be hard pressed to find someone outside of a magazine to do it. Like me, most others probably don't want to spend money on a dyno tune when they are happy with the way the bike runs in auto tune.

Speaking only for me, I can live with whatever I am leaving on the table by not using a dyno tuner.

[GPO03FatBoy]

Originally Posted by hjdistl

You hit on several good points here.


.........

I would like to see a typical 95 build that has been tuned by an average SERT Tuner and a dyno run sheet from it. I say average, because from what I read most are average (not slinging mud at anybody, just repeating what I have read. I know there are some excellent ones out there)

.....

and therein may lie the problem. It does seem that the average tuners are focused only on peak numbers. It's only the good tuners that worry about completely mapping a bike. And for that reason, and many other of hjdistl's points, I'd agree that a closed loop system is the way to go - for most riders. My only point is that even the closed loop systems won't be fully optimized at WOT, until they get some good target AFR and timing numbers from a dyno tune at 100% throttle. That is, at least until the closed loop systems start using multi-gas analysis to really figure out their burn efficiencies. Then, closed loop would seem to be the only way to go.

Personally, I'm still using the manual approximation to a closed loop and mapping my VEs from road data using the TwinScan II+ and SERT. For a guy like me that rides essentially sea level to 2k elevation, it seems to work well and gives me excellent street ridability based on an AFR map that matches my riding style. But, I'll admit, I'm still off to the dyno for those WOT runs to see what the upper limits of my engine's performance really are...

[hjdistl]

GPO03FatBoy

BINGO on the average tuners.

My advice to anyone is go with what you are the most comfortable with given your loacation, tuners etc.

[DCRANER]

Sorry, maybe I missed it or am just too lazy to see it.

But, has anyone done the ThunderMax ECM & Auto Tune on an 07 96" bagger?

[Snaps]

Originally Posted by DCRANER

Sorry, maybe I missed it or am just too lazy to see it.

But, has anyone done the ThunderMax ECM & Auto Tune on an 07 96" bagger?

Mine arrived on my doorstep about 5:00pm tonight. I'm hoping to get it installed tomorrow on my '07 FLHX. Everybody keep your fingers crossed for me and I'll report as soon as I can.

[DCRANER]

Originally Posted by Snaps

Mine arrived on my doorstep about 5:00pm tonight. I'm hoping to get it installed tomorrow on my '07 FLHX. Everybody keep your fingers crossed for me and I'll report as soon as I can.

O/K, be sure and tell us what you have; dead bone stock, Stage1 (K&N), dealer download, Slip-ons, etc.

And, if you work thru the entire night, we'll give you a

[TXCHOP]

Just a heads up for anyone following this thread closely like me. Drag soecialties now carries the Thundermax ECM with closed loop system. Together or separate.
Together reatail is $869.95 pn# 1020-0323 01-07 delphi
Auto tune module is $399.95 Pn# 1020-0322
Thundermax ECM is $485.95 pn#1020-0321
These are new to drag and may take a little bit to get...

Just wanted to give a heads up.......

[moorefun]

Originally Posted by hjdistl

You hit on several good points here.

But here is the thing that I have an issue with (not with you)

"they just don't seem to be peak performers without dyno time."

I do not think anyone with a SERT and dyno time can honestly and truthfully say the peak performance is better than a closed loop system that has been tweaked. (Please refer to Post#74 in this thread) because unless you have ran both side by side under the same conditions no way do you know.

Sorry, theory does not cut it because in theory a helicopter and a bumble bee are not supposed to be able to fly. Of course everyone know that a helicopter does not fly the just beat the air into submission.

Here is the challenge I have for both a tuner and Zippers. Someone please do a heads up comparison. No guessing like many are doing and making assumptions (We all know the 3 key words in assume).

I would like to see a typical 95 build that has been tuned by an average SERT Tuner and a dyno run sheet from it. I say average, because from what I read most are average (not slinging mud at anybody, just repeating what I have read. I know there are some excellent ones out there)

Then the same bike with a closed loop system set up like in Post #74 (any owner of a TM w AT can do that) and a dyno run sheet from it.

Maybe we can get one of the big name Motorcycle Magazines to do just such a test. (Maybe the one the forum is named after???)

I think it would be one hell of a shoot out.

What do you think??

PS in the 30's and still ridding. Wife thinks I am nutzzz but then again she has though that for many years.

I wish someone would do this test as well.

I was looking at the ThunderMax and the Daytona Twin Tech. I was leaning towards the TM. Steve (GMR) talked me into the DTT instead of the TM. He said he put one on a 124 he did and it worked out great. So I took his advice and had him order me one on Saturday.

I have a couple of dyno tests I would like to do.

First one would be with my current configuration (GMR 98 Stage II, D&D Fat Cat, Power Commander III). I have not had this configuration tuned. The guy that Steve recommends "as the best tunner in Phoenix" is without a dyno at least until the end of the month. This is the main reasion I started looking at the TM and the DTT. The current map is from a bike with the same build, exhaust, etc and it was tuned by the guy that Steve recommends. It runs great with this map, no hesitation, poping or serging. Gets decent mileage, and plugs look nice and tan. There is a slight pinging at a 2400 to 2600 f