Zippers Thundermax Auto Tune

[MFouts]

Just visiting Zippers web site. In this day and age why would they have such a poorly done site. Seems they could at least make prices easier to get at.

Marc

[Streetglider 07]

Zippers site is poor use www.thunder-max.com
And yes you can look at base maps there hex you can even down load the software for the tuner and play around with it, the pass key to activate
the software is in the owners manual down load, Just some generic numbers.
Hope this helps some out. I have SERT now and have been playing around
with the thunder max software just to see if I like it...

[claydbal]

Originally Posted by Streetglider 07

Zippers site is poor use www.thunder-max.com
And yes you can look at base maps there hex you can even down load the software for the tuner and play around with it, the pass key to activate
the software is in the owners manual down load, Just some generic numbers.
Hope this helps some out. I have SERT now and have been playing around
with the thunder max software just to see if I like it...

ther4e is an advanced software for those who qualify.

[rastas]

Originally Posted by californiarob

betcha it is a glorified private lable Daytona twintec product. I,d go to the source.

www.daytona-twintec.com

dont know how true it is or not but if you hit the links button at daytona twin tec and check distributers it has Zippers down as a private label

[JDK20723]

See post 35. While it is true Zipper's does use DTT for some private label ignitions, the ThunderMax is the product of a joint venture between Zipper's and Thunder Heart Performance, White House, Tennesee. No affiliation with DTT on this product.

[bbrowncods]

Originally Posted by Streetglider 07

Zippers site is poor use www.thunder-max.com
And yes you can look at base maps there hex you can even down load the software for the tuner and play around with it, the pass key to activate
the software is in the owners manual down load, Just some generic numbers.
Hope this helps some out. I have SERT now and have been playing around
with the thunder max software just to see if I like it...

I could get the software to work but could not get basemaps to display AFR or timing data. After loading a map all I see is a straight line for AFR and timing. I am wanting to see the resolution of the tables. Also how timing is determined. It looks like, and again it is hard to tell without seeing an actual map, that timing is based just on RPM. Anyone with a system care to comment?

[rastas]

Originally Posted by JDK20723

See post 35. While it is true Zipper's does use DTT for some private label ignitions, the ThunderMax is the product of a joint venture between Zipper's and Thunder Heart Performance, White House, Tennesee. No affiliation with DTT on this product.

Glad you chimed in JDK2073 I had already made my decision to use thundermax even after seeing that thread.But good that you cleared that up though.

[GPO03FatBoy]

Ok, I've been reading and I'm still not clear.

What does the Zippers system give you above tuning a stock ECM with an O2 sensor package like the Daytona Twinscan? Both would seem to produce well tuned ECMs with the AFR values calibrated specifically to the builds. Starting with an AFR map that matches the riding style of the individual and takes into consideration the build, both the Zippers system and TwinScan tuned stock ECM, would seem to get the bike to the same optimized level.

But to take either the stock ECM or the Zippers module to a peak performance level, it would still seem to require a dyno in order to tweak the AFR and timing values to produce peak HP/Tq.

I guess I may be missing something, but is the Zippers package anything more than a set of base maps provided with a closed loop system that will tune the motor's AFR to the actual values being called for in the canned base map?

[07softayl]

HI All new to this forum.

I didn't think you could alter the tuning of the existing ECM without a Sert (or a Power Commander which doesn't actually change the stock ECM). Even then you would still be working with narrow band injectors. (except for the PC which would end up in open loop)
It sounds like the THundermax autotune Wide Band closed loop system will not require retuning with any change carried out in the future. This is where it will really overpower the alternative of Sert/ PC and Twin Scan.

( for the record- I already have a PC for my 07 and am considering getting the Twin scan for other reasons including tuning multiple bikes.)

just my 2C

Cheers

Mick in Oz

[nc-renegade]

The Zipper unit has many more cells of tunability than the Stock ECU has. It also runs in Closed loop so anytime something changes on the system (gasoline quality, dirty injectors, bike modifications, etc...) the system adapts.

Using a DTT Scan and tuning your bike manually with a SERT or PC is only good for that moment and I bet will not cover all driving conditions. Also, I am basically lazy, I just want to ride! A dyno tune is great if you can find a good one and welling to pay what it takes...6 to 8 hours of detailed tuning.

With the Zipper, you set the target AFR, either total across all RPM's or target different AFR for different TPS and RPM and the system does the rest. Right now, my unit is set for one AFR across the rpm range, this should provide the best fuel economy. Later, I will change different TPS and RPMs to make it for more performance. Either way, I bet it is better than what my local tuners can do.

[claydbal]

Originally Posted by GPO03FatBoy

Ok, I've been reading and I'm still not clear.

What does the Zippers system give you above tuning a stock ECM with an O2 sensor package like the Daytona Twinscan? Both would seem to produce well tuned ECMs with the AFR values calibrated specifically to the builds. Starting with an AFR map that matches the riding style of the individual and takes into consideration the build, both the Zippers system and TwinScan tuned stock ECM, would seem to get the bike to the same optimized level.

But to take either the stock ECM or the Zippers module to a peak performance level, it would still seem to require a dyno in order to tweak the AFR and timing values to produce peak HP/Tq.

I guess I may be missing something, but is the Zippers package anything more than a set of base maps provided with a closed loop system that will tune the motor's AFR to the actual values being called for in the canned base map?

you load the base map to start the bike and give the ecm a starting point. it unes from there to an afr that you select. it also tunes optimum timing and decel fuel.

[GPO03FatBoy]

Originally Posted by claydbal

you load the base map to start the bike and give the ecm a starting point. it unes from there to an afr that you select. it also tunes optimum timing and decel fuel.

Thanks clay and renegade.

The Zippers unit sounds like it does a nice job of self-tuning a bike based on the user selected AFR map. Given a smart selection of AFR values, this should give a nice smooth ride and definitely improve performance over a bike with a canned map in a stock ECM and untuned VEs.

The closed loop system also sounds great for a guy who constantly rides at different elevations and varying climates, or for someone who doesn't want to have to manually collect data and program his/her self. I guess for me, essentially confined to the east coast, tuning my stock ECM with the Twinscan II+/SERT gives me a manual equivalent for common riding conditions.

I don't see however, how the Zippers unit can optimize timing, without having multi-gas input to see how efficient the burn really is. It would seem that the Zippers unit should be able to do the same thing that the SERT allows for, in terms of reading the max advance possible before knock sets in, and then backing the timing down by some offset level. It's a solid approach, but not one that necessarily peaks performance.

It still seems though, whether using a Twinscan/SERT with the stock ECM, or using the closed loop Zippers system, that the only way to tune for peak HP/TQ is to take the bike to the dyno and figure out the optimal AFR and timing table values. If one wants to tune for peak performance, even with the Zippers unit the bike will still have to find its way to the dyno??

So, unless I'm missing something, even with a closed-loop system, the bike still needs to go to do a dyno for a tune, to find optimal AFR values for peak HP/TQ. With this in mind, I guess what I wonder is, can you take the Zippers out of closed loop mode to do peak performance tuning on a dyno, then, once the optimal AFR and timing settings are determined, put it back into closed loop mode to have the bike self-adjust around the manually entered AFR values?

[nc-renegade]

Originally Posted by GPO03FatBoy

Thanks clay and renegade.

I don't see however, how the Zippers unit can optimize timing, without having multi-gas input to see how efficient the burn really is. It would seem that the Zippers unit should be able to do the same thing that the SERT allows for, in terms of reading the max advance possible before knock sets in, and then backing the timing down by some offset level. It's a solid approach, but not one that necessarily peaks performance.

I do not know enough about the unit to guess.

Originally Posted by GPO03FatBoy

So, unless I'm missing something, even with a closed-loop system, the bike still needs to go to do a dyno for a tune, to find optimal AFR values for peak HP/TQ. With this in mind, I guess what I wonder is, can you take the Zippers out of closed loop mode to do peak performance tuning on a dyno, then, once the optimal AFR and timing settings are determined, put it back into closed loop mode to have the bike self-adjust around the manually entered AFR values?

To find optimal AFR values for peak HP/TQ, you still need a good tuner, no doubt. I purchased the unit because I think the Zipper will out perform most tuners out there without the need to dyno it; certainly in my area. I think any performance gains from a dyno run would be splitting hairs and I would not be able to tell the difference. (IMHO)

To answer your question, yes you can run it open-loop and dyno tune for optimal AFR and timing settings. Once back in close-loop, it will work to keep meet your settings.

[Paniolo]

Well I have the Zippers Wide Band closed loop system, and I look at it this way.
Most really good dyno tuners can quickly dial a bike in so close that you can feel it immediatly riding on the street.
I know, 'cause I've been there, ride it in, get it tuned, and ride it out feeling a BIG difference.

But to go on a dyno, and get every cell of fuel and timing tweaked to produce the best possible tune ever, would probably take more time, and that is what will cost a lot more money. Plus there are so many variables to it that are constantly changing. A good tuner finds the ideal tune, and sets it.

Now the Zippers will not give you that "perfect tune" if that is indeed what you are seeking. What it will do is get you as close as a good dyno tuner will, and still have the ability to make wide band adjustments as things change. What you can do is set the tuning parameters to how you want it. You can pick where and when you want it richer, and leaner.

Low speed around town part open throttle between 1,000-2,700rpms, afr at 13.0 for smooth riding and cooler engine temps.
High speed freeway, throttle at 26degrees between 3,500-4,300rpms, afr at 13.8 to 14.0 for better mpgs.
WOT for passing at 12.3 for for instant throttle response.

Change the exhaust, it will learn and adjust. There's money saved on another dyno tune.
Install a different cam, it will learn an adjust, saving another dyno tune.
Swap out a TB or air cleaner, it will adjust.
Go from an 88" to a 95", it will learn and adjust.

Right now my bike runs a good as, if not slightly better than the best dyno tune I ever had.
When I change my mufflers from FullSac to SPOs, the system will learn and change. That is where I see the big difference coming from.

[hjdistl]

How many of us ride our bikes the way they are tuned on a dyno?

NOT

In most instances a dyno sheet is only for "Bragging Rights"

They only dyno I pay attention to is the one that is integrated into my butt.

PS. Mine tells me my ThunderMax Autotued 06 Dyna SG is doing great.