Daytona Twin-Tech TCFI tuning

[STB]

Originally Posted by niget2002

Okay. Now that I think most people have there latest installs working again ... let's talk about timing.

What's the default timing values, and where should I start for adjusting them? Is there any good place on the web to go to find more information about timing and how it affects engines?

Email me and I will send a generic timing/advance info chart to you which a bud from Arizona sent to me a while back. The chart explains the push and shove of timing/advance. I don't know how to post it here........... .

Seabrook

[LAF]

Well it appears that persistence, read TENACITY, pays off. The TCFI has held for two whole days now.

Not sure what took care of the issue but I suspect the ground down screws from BC for a little extra TPS adjustment was part of it.

I have included the dat file and if anyone who could make any recommendations I would greatly appreciate it.

Now I did have a go around with my compression releases and had to hunt down two Husqavarna (sp) to the tune of 29.99 each. Now they appear to not close on their own on a cold start as if there is not enough compression to close them, but a blip of the throttle will snap them in, but on a cold start not what I do, just reach down and pull them up.

Could this be timing?

Anyway any thought and help would be GREAT.

Ohh and I am still Red Keying on start, would a bulb out on my Volt Gage do this in any way? It has been out for months though and on a Glide I am in no hurry to go there on a gage I just don't use that often.

[STB]

Originally Posted by LAF

Well it appears that persistence, read TENACITY, pays off. The TCFI has held for two whole days now.

Not sure what took care of the issue but I suspect the ground down screws from BC for a little extra TPS adjustment was part of it.

I have included the dat file and if anyone who could make any recommendations I would greatly appreciate it.

Now I did have a go around with my compression releases and had to hunt down two Husqavarna (sp) to the tune of 29.99 each. Now they appear to not close on their own on a cold start as if there is not enough compression to close them, but a blip of the throttle will snap them in, but on a cold start not what I do, just reach down and pull them up.

Could this be timing?

Anyway any thought and help would be GREAT.

Ohh and I am still Red Keying on start, would a bulb out on my Volt Gage do this in any way? It has been out for months though and on a Glide I am in no hurry to go there on a gage I just don't use that often.

We have been hunting for stiffer sprung compression releases for quite a while. Looks like you found some. What are they? Are you sure they close 'cause we don't want to let in the cold air which will burn a hole in my piston.

Thanks.

Seabrook

[LAF]

Here is a link to what I got, Part #503665601 for a 3120 XP Chain Saw and man what a beast they are

http://www.npeco.com/index.html?lang...rget=d736.html

Originally Posted by STB

We have been hunting for stiffer sprung compression releases for quite a while. Looks like you found some. What are they? Are you sure they close 'cause we don't want to let in the cold air which will burn a hole in my piston.

Thanks.

Seabrook

[STB]

Originally Posted by LAF

Here is a link to what I got, Part #503665601 for a 3120 XP Chain Saw and man what a beast they are

http://www.npeco.com/index.html?lang...rget=d736.html

Thanks. The Swedes must be serious......... .

STB

[Griffiss]

I found the Red Key problem thanks to someone here mentioning the LED turn sugnals, I have them and the ballast wire was disconneted, broken wire. I am pretty sure the wire was grounding and that was causing my shutdown problem. Now on to the starting problem. I am sure it is just some IAC tuning, I occasionally have the high idle problem if I start the bike without waiting about 30 seconds after I turn it on to hit the starter button, but it seems to be getting harder and harder to start. It so freakin hot here I may just wait a couple of days, on the bike it's like riding thru a sauna.

[timberz]

I'm noticing some ping when rolling on the throttle. How do I adjust the advance table? Do I use the View program and note the rpm & throttle positon when the ping is occurring? When editing the table, how do I go about changing the numbers? Do I change the numbers by 1 or 2 units or use a percentage? And, how big of range of numbers should I be editing for a given area of pinging?

[bbrowncods]

Use live view if you have it. I don't. So I just enduce the ping when I'm close to home and then roll off the throttle for a bit so I can identify the RPM and throttle position when I download the view data. Just go to the closest block in the ADV table that you got the ping and reduce it 2-3 units. Then taper the surrounding blocks higher to lower from top to bottom, and lower to higher from left to right. Exact numbers are not that important, just make the MAP smooth. Save the table and then save the file.

I would also go to a colder set of plugs if you have a high compression engine.

I have the configuration below and am running around 25 degree advance at 2500 rpm. I bet you have ping in the 2100- 2700 rpm at 22-28 MAP. It took going to a colder plug to get rid of the ping on hot summer days. Another suggestion is going richer on the AFR. I am at 12.8 all the way across at 22.5% throttle and above.

[timberz]

Originally Posted by bbrowncods

Use live view if you have it. I don't. So I just enduce the ping when I'm close to home and then roll off the throttle for a bit so I can identify the RPM and throttle position when I download the view data. Just go to the closest block in the ADV table that you got the ping and reduce it 2-3 units. Then taper the surrounding blocks higher to lower from top to bottom, and lower to higher from left to right. Exact numbers are not that important, just make the MAP smooth. Save the table and then save the file.

I would also go to a colder set of plugs if you have a high compression engine.

I have the configuration below and am running around 25 degree advance at 2500 rpm. I bet you have ping in the 2100- 2700 rpm at 22-28 MAP. It took going to a colder plug to get rid of the ping on hot summer days. Another suggestion is going richer on the AFR. I am at 12.8 all the way across at 22.5% throttle and above.

Thanks for the insight and advice. The pinging just became noticable with the last couple tanks of gas and the very hot weather we're having. Changing the heat range on the plug sounds like good advice. I'll make the changes in steps and see how the engine reacts.

[timberz]

Had an interesting chain of events yesterday afternoon that brought this question to mind. The fuse blew that powers the WEGO. Engine wouldn't idle/idled roughly and the oil temp. was about 30 degrees higher. Would you expect the engine to run hotter and rough with no power to the WEGO and the TCFI in close circuit mode?

[STB]

Originally Posted by STB

If I get my gaskets in this week, I will put the stock TB on and tune it this weekend, gods willing, and sooner or later report on stability and TPS/IAC adjustability. If it is unstable with the stock TB, I guess the SERT is on the horizon since at least a few local mechanics have immense experience with the SERT. I just hope the stock TB can handle a little bit of the engine demand since my cams don't turn on till 2700 rpms just when the stock TB might run out of air on a 4.25" bore. I ought to be able to make 110 hp with the stock TB, if so, it should work through midrange rpms. We shall see.

STB

I finally got the gaskets in and completed the project. The stock TB is back on the bike. I took off the Kuryakyn 57mm TB.
Verdict: Darned good.
I kept the map developed with the 57mm Kuryakyn TB and put the parameters on open loop. I put the TPS at nominal. I fired it up and it started on the first try. I looked at the IAC and it started at 70 with ambient temp at 88 deg F.. It only moved, every so slowly to about 60 at 110 C ET. The Kury never acted so slowly and smoothly. I turned the throttle stop about 1.5 revolutions to open the butterfly. I reset the TPS to just below midrange of nominal but within specs. The IAC hit 30 at 115 C ET and was steady as a rock and stayed there till I shut it down at 120 C ET. I restarted the bike several times and everything was stable with no variation except the IAC maybe went to 32 at 118 C ET. Very stable. All this was done in the garage and nothing done on the street yet. That's the next step. I am off for a ride!

BTW, I put the parameters back to closed look and reduced the horsepower estimate 6 hp or so. I left the injector parameter at 6.1 gps since I am using the 6.1 injectors on the stock TB. (These injectors were flowed by Marren Injector Service at 6.1 gps at 58 psi which is HD fuel pressure. Someone told me they should have been flowed over 58 psi to arrive at the standard flow rate. I don't know about that, yet). Idle could be reduced to 930 rpms and it was as smooth as butter. The rpms are at about 1100 which is Ok for a 4.25 inch bore engine.

The only slight concern is that the stock manifold does not have as much play/neck length at the gasket/flange area; the Kuryakyn has more length. Therefore, the flanges on the manifold do not butt up against the stop on the manifold since, apparently, there is a bit more spread on my cylinders than stock. (Probably, the cases are bored at the spigot a bit wider than stock which spread out the cylinders an extra 1/4 inch or less between both front and back cylinder intake mating surface on the heads 'cause we measured it....... ).

My impressions: this is the way it should work. It was tuneable as it should have been all along in that the sweet spot on the IAC was easily found and never varied inexplicably. I will see what day two and day three bring and report back.

Am I down on the Kuryakyn. No since after 12 months of troubleshooting the Kury, I finally got it working even though it would inexplicably vary (but less than before) and finding the IAC sweetspot was purely magic which I could find after lighting incense and muttering a mantra. The 57 mm Kuryakyn is in its third stage of product revision. Stage one had screws that were too large for the throttle body shaft and the shaft would crack, if your engine backfired, at the screws holes in the shaft. Stage two used smaller screws for the butterfly mount to the shaft to prevent shaft breakage on backfiring. Stage three, supposedly, will have different material for the butterfly shaft. Kuryakyn has treated me well in that they want my TB back to look at it. They are sending a new stage three 57mm TB even though I am 3 months out of warranty. No complaints about that.


STB

[niget2002]

Mine in the last two weeks has been acting funny again during warm up.

I checked the IAC and TPS and they haven't changed.

There's two things happening...

1) As the bike is warming up, the IAC will inexplicably jump from one value to the next a couple of times causing the bike to stutter. This tends to vary in time from start, but usually happens shorty after the bike switches to closed loop.

2) For some reason, no matter how long a let the bike warm up... once I start moving, the IAC will drop below 30... near 20-25, until I come to the first stop. Once I come to a complete stop, the IAC will go back to 35 where it belongs, then never drops below 30 for the rest of the ride. This does not seem to have any relation to time or engine temp. It's not such a bad thing, except that when I pull in the clutch to come to the first stop, the bike has died on me from trying to idle at too low of a rpm.

Once the bike is warmed up, though, it's beutiful.

I will make a note, that the only real change I know I made to the bike in the last three weeks, is I've been putting a cheaper brand gas in the bike. The shamerock station I usually use closed, and I've been filling up at a "race track" brand. Today, I found a Phillip 66 and put that in it. I know where a Shell station is too, so I may start going to it.

[STB]

The only thing I can comment on right now after my first run with the stock TB (since I did not have time to download the log last night after the run) is that the advance is too high and the fifth gear roll on is obviously down on HP since the stock TB is so small: probably 15 hp down or more since my cam turns on at 2750 rpms or so. I suspect the small cylinder fill by the smaller TB reduced the advance needed: less to ignite and quicker flame travel, I suspect. Other than that, it hesitated twice coming off idle after a red light stop and had a slight sneeze twice when it hesitated. But, it is tuning and seemed to correct that after I ran it 35 miles or so. I suspect the hesitation and sneezing will be cured after I BLM it and go to open loop. It seemed to me, in the past, that the 2.5% BLM row messed up the off idle performance during closed loop and riding even when you did not apply the BLM (which is done at zero in that row). I suspect it is the same thing now with my single O2 DTT.

What is surprising is that apparently the fuel is not far off what the engine needed since the BLM seemed to be fairly stable which is a bit of a surprise. I thought it would be way rich considering the reduced air volume, even at low rpms. After I check the BLM tonight, I will know for sure.

I will see if the IAC is stable and repeatable tonight and tomorrow.

After I get it BLMed, I will be able to check low end responsiveness to see if the smaller TB had an performance boost due to higher velocity of the intake charge, just for grins. But, I have to reduce that advance first....... .

STB

[niget2002]

I figured out part of my problem... somehow through changing maps I managed to put a map on the bike with the wrong injector size.

However, I included a log with the anomolie I'm seeing now... as long as the bike is at a stand still, the IAC is a nice pretty value, but the longer I cruise, the lower the value drops to the point that when I go to stop again, the engine dies.

Any ideas? Is this still just a bad IAC adjustment and I need to back the screw out more?


EDIT: FIXED

Called DTT and asked about my IAC issues. It came down to bad settings in the "Time based IAC start adder" table. I had completely miss understood what I read about what this table did. With a little guidance, the bike is now running perfect.

[STB]

The IAC is stable and has been so for days. Further, the adjustability of the IAC is, in a word, precise. The TPS is stable and likewise precise. Both do what they should, how they should and are adjustable like they ought to be. The only variation I have seen is the IAC will drop below 30 between 80 C ET and about 95 C ET but at 110 C ET it rises and stays dead on at 31 and stays there after the bike is warmed up. The log shows a slow moving, steady and linear movement of the IAC without jerks or spikes up or down. Amazing.

Looking at the stock TB, it appears to have heat sinks around the IAC to TB boss interface. I suspect these FINS are not decorative.

I am beginning to wonder what effect a heat insulating (polypropolyene) spacer would do when placed between the TB and manifold. The Kuryakyn will accept that spacer since Kuryakyn sells a spacer made out of aluminium which enables the TB to fit other bike models: make it out of polyp. etc., maybe like the insulators used on carburator/manifold interface. Then again, who knows.

STB