Daytona Twin-Tech TCFI tuning

[LAF]

Well the stock is wound a LOT tighter on the Geo. This has to be Thermal Expansion or A TCFI setting. Cant figure it out though. Just came back in set TPS, adjusted IAC and am waiting for the fan to cool it down to 60 or so C and then will check it..

Don't know what it is but you would figure if you KNOW your Motor and Trany are hot and set these settings, then at that head temp the IAC should be done, so it kind of throws Thermal Expansion out the window. I just don't get it and US duel guys are really on the bleeding edge, but I am thinking it is once again an idiosyncrasy of the TCFI and only GROCK or someone who knows what the hell they are seeing will be our only hope.

Although I still like Mark at BC I don't think he sees enough to deviate from what he "knows" works. I will try and call him again and see what he says but I have lived with months of the TCFI not setting correctly and it took a long time for the bike to run and I am not sure what made it work. I can say on the runs this sets in the bike runs like a raped ape.

Originally Posted by bbrowncods

LAF, I'm sure you checked this but I heard that the Gero TB needs a little more spring to hold it closed, especially when hot. I don't know, but if it is open a Kunt hair then it would act up.

[sstan]

LAF - I see in the map you posted yesterday that you have your nominal idle IAC set to 29, why? DTT is recommending 35 in this field (basic module parameters). The IAC lookup is very dependant on this being correct. From the Idle Tech note:

"you can readily see that serious problems would arise if the Nominal Idle IAC value was incorrect. The injector pulse width calculation would be incorrect with the error tending to be greatest during cold start and hot restart conditions."

The IAC value used for lookup in the IAC Based TPS Adder table is calculated based on the following equation:

Table Lookup IAC = IAC Position – Nominal Idle IAC

Why don't you try increasing the nominal idle setting in your basic parameters? Your Alpha-N table is needing some manual smoothing especially in the 2.5% area at low RPM's. It might be worth a shot.

[LAF]

I just realized last-night that the check box was checked for auto nominal IAC on the setup screen and that is what changes it. I unchecked the box.
I set mine to 35 but don't know if 30 or 35 is correct.

Originally Posted by sstan

LAF - I see in the map you posted yesterday that you have your nominal idle IAC set to 29, why? DTT is recommending 35 in this field (basic module parameters). The IAC lookup is very dependant on this being correct. From the Idle Tech note:

"you can readily see that serious problems would arise if the Nominal Idle IAC value was incorrect. The injector pulse width calculation would be incorrect with the error tending to be greatest during cold start and hot restart conditions."

The IAC value used for lookup in the IAC Based TPS Adder table is calculated based on the following equation:

Table Lookup IAC = IAC Position – Nominal Idle IAC

Why don't you try increasing the nominal idle setting in your basic parameters? Your Alpha-N table is needing some manual smoothing especially in the 2.5% area at low RPM's. It might be worth a shot.

[STB]

Ok. I am game for a run at the magic fix. If memory serves correctly, the magic fix is running the stock TB with the DTT O2 system according to ... well you know who.

I took my Kuryakyn 57 mm TB off the motor so I could inspect the cylinder bore, valves etc.. So, I guess I will put on my stock TB and see if the 1. IAC is stable and repeatable, 2. the TPS is stable and repeatable, and 3. and see if you know who is full of you know what.

I figure I will run the injectors from the Kuryakyn on the stock TB which surely won't affect thermal expansion rates.

So, let's see.

STB

[LAF]

Well I am up for anything on this. Spent my dime on the call to CAL. and really am nowhere ahead. I done as told, set initial settings, went for a ride to bring it up to temp 220 or so on oil, bring it home after it cools a bit, I check as told and TPS off, so set it while it is hot, as I am told, then fire it up and I cant get the IAC in range! Let it cool with fan on it, adjust IAC as it was way high and idle was high.

Now I started at 4:30 after the initial ride, every 45 minuets or so take a stab at adjustment until I run out of temp and need it to cool off, fan 45, and repeat. FINALLY it sets dead on. OK let it cool and wash up, start it, nice lope, 968-1000 RPM, take off ride the long way to my brothers, cig and water again, go out to start it and you guessed it, RACING like a nut 3 times I try, and all 12-1300 idle and wont settle out. Ride off again stop once in a mile, let sit a minuet or three, no go, ride another mile and stop wait longer, get the RED KEY light flicker, it settles in at 1000 RPM and off I go.

Get home check TPS right away, dead on 4. Try a restart and it races, download data, increase Et Based IAC start to increase them to 35 in the last 3 cells, immediately try a re-start no go, racing again. Gonna live view it, cold start tomorrow, but I AM NOT CHANGING it again. Need to find the solution to this RPM racing and then Red Key light flicker.

I am truly at a loss as to what to do, when I get a good start it runs and logs great, but this hot start racing issue is for the birds...............

[STB]

I basically had the same experience: if the IAC and the TPS were adjusted, it was a miracle which could not be repeated. There was no rhyme or reason for how it would get in the sweet spot or how it got out of the sweet spot. I fiddled with it and fiddled with it until IT decided to hit the mark for the TPS and IAC. I had no real control or repeatability. And, opening the butterfly up to .006 caused it to "idle" at 2500 rpms.

Ultimately, by aggressively increasing the fuel mixture on the Alpha N so that when the engine switched to closed loop (single O2 setup) and the AFR in real time indicated 90 really helped, it seemed, to allow the IAC and TPS to adjust easier. Why? I have no idea since those are mechanical adjustments and not data adjustments.

The reality is that I had 45 IAC most of the time and sometimes it would hit 30 which was not relative to temperature since I might have 45 at 110 C and the next ride might have 30 IAC at 110 C. So, I decided to set it up on the very low side so that it might hit 22 when really hot which meant, in part, I was getting more air when it was hot. This was better than seeing 45 IAC when it was hot and it was only 10 points or so below nominal IAC which was better than 10 to 15 points above nominal IAC in my book. The proof was in the pudding since it ran really well set up like that. I have a 4.25" bore, so the engine needed more start up air when hot.

I don't know if you are running the 4 advance on a 95 CI or larger CI, but if you are you might consider upping your advance curve since the bike may perform better with a higher advance curve. I found that the DTT recommendation for 4 on a 95 CI is a bit low unless your compression is quite high, say, above 10.5 to 1. The larger the bore, the more advance is required on single plug heads. HOWEVER, there are other factors to consider than bore diameter when upping the advance such as piston shape, weight, load and gas quality not to mention cam profile. I run over 6 DTT advance map on a 4.25" bore at 10.2 to 1 compresssion ratio and a Redshift 577 cam in a heavy bagger with occassional two up riding, for example. I think the tuning was helped immensely by this advance "upping" since the dog was taken out of the bottom end with the higher advance. And, the tuning became easier, more stable and more repeatable.

Finally, turning off the Closed Loop helped a lot after I got it where I wanted the tune. I must admit, I don't look at the IAC and TPS that often since I prefer to avoid the inevitable consternation. When I starts to run doggy, I look at it and fiddle with it until the DTT gods decide to hit the mark.

Personally, I suspect that DTT gurus for pay have built in job security.

If I get my gaskets in this week, I will put the stock TB on and tune it this weekend, gods willing, and sooner or later report on stability and TPS/IAC adjustability. If it is unstable with the stock TB, I guess the SERT is on the horizon since at least a few local mechanics have immense experience with the SERT. I just hope the stock TB can handle a little bit of the engine demand since my cams don't turn on till 2700 rpms just when the stock TB might run out of air on a 4.25" bore. I ought to be able to make 110 hp with the stock TB, if so, it should work through midrange rpms. We shall see.

STB

[STB]

Let me repeat this since it may have become lost in my last long post:

Having the BLM at 90 or even less at the end of warm up was accomplished by aggressive Alpha N changes.

I thought it was at 90, but when I got aggressive with the Alpha N, it went just a shade below 90 (less than I expected) and the AFR stabilized which cured the racing and other start up problems in large part. (I would still modify my advance curve first tho since if it is wrong, the low rpm performance my be doggy).

In fact, now when it starts, it usually goes up to about 1800 rpms (due to cold enrichment) and then drops down to 1100 idle just like it should within a few seconds. I notice that if it does not hit 1800 on start up for a few seconds and then drops to 1100 idle, then ......... guess what is messed up? TPS or IAC.

STB

[GRock]

Originally Posted by LAF

Well I am up for anything on this. Spent my dime on the call to CAL. and really am nowhere ahead. I done as told, set initial settings, went for a ride to bring it up to temp 220 or so on oil, bring it home after it cools a bit, I check as told and TPS off, so set it while it is hot, as I am told, then fire it up and I cant get the IAC in range! Let it cool with fan on it, adjust IAC as it was way high and idle was high.

Now I started at 4:30 after the initial ride, every 45 minuets or so take a stab at adjustment until I run out of temp and need it to cool off, fan 45, and repeat. FINALLY it sets dead on. OK let it cool and wash up, start it, nice lope, 968-1000 RPM, take off ride the long way to my brothers, cig and water again, go out to start it and you guessed it, RACING like a nut 3 times I try, and all 12-1300 idle and wont settle out. Ride off again stop once in a mile, let sit a minuet or three, no go, ride another mile and stop wait longer, get the RED KEY light flicker, it settles in at 1000 RPM and off I go.

Get home check TPS right away, dead on 4. Try a restart and it races, download data, increase Et Based IAC start to increase them to 35 in the last 3 cells, immediately try a re-start no go, racing again. Gonna live view it, cold start tomorrow, but I AM NOT CHANGING it again. Need to find the solution to this RPM racing and then Red Key light flicker.

I am truly at a loss as to what to do, when I get a good start it runs and logs great, but this hot start racing issue is for the birds...............

OK LAF, let's see if I can give you a hand here.

If you are having trouble getting the IAC to settle in, you may be able to get the correction by adjusting the throttle blade. Remember this...... the amount of air getting into the TB comes from 2 places, the IAC and the opening of the butterfly. So if your IAC won't get down low enough after you are riding to idle correctly, then simply open the butterfly a bit more. And vice versa if you are going too low on the IAC after a run. A good way to see if you are close is to go to live data mode and see where the IAC is right after the bike goes into closed loop after warm up. If should be damned close to where you set it, but use this to do your TB adjustments to get where you need to be and then LEAVE IT ALONE!!!!!! And, of course, be sure to reset the TPS if you adjust the butterfly.
That Gerolamy dual TB should have you idling real smooth if you are set right. Don't be afraid to set yourself into the 11.5 or so range on the AFR for idle range to compensate for the big gulp that the dual 50's take in. And yes, when you get it running pretty well and idling correctly, disable the closed loop operation.

All the best.

G

[Griffiss]

OK well that's good info but what about the damn RED KEY! Mine comes on when I turn on my turn signal, then things start to go south. If I use hand signals the bike runs fine. If the RED KEY stays on long enough the bike will shut off, it restarts but damned unerving in the middle of a sweeperwhen the engine dies.

[niget2002]

Originally Posted by Griffiss

OK well that's good info but what about the damn RED KEY! Mine comes on when I turn on my turn signal, then things start to go south. If I use hand signals the bike runs fine. If the RED KEY stays on long enough the bike will shut off, it restarts but damned unerving in the middle of a sweeperwhen the engine dies.

Plug the stock computer in and make sure it doesn't still do it.

My bike does this too, but it's becaue I put LED turn signals on my bike. The key comes on, but my bike doesn't die.

[LAF]

G once again thank you for bailing me out, and advice once again.

Here is todays "tail":

Man I went out this am, 6:10, hit the starter button, it raced, I killed it, grab the PREMIUM ONLY Turbo car and go to work.

Stew on it all day and start going over what has been suggested to me by BC. Cable bind, nope one hel$ of a smooth stroke, nice routing and NOT on my jugs or rocker box (although BC says it is OK for them to do that). After Market throttle Grip, nope just in there to put the DiamonBack cables on and all is smooth, clean (and yes the brake and clutch DiamondBack cables are on their way to me )

Next was maybe dirty TPS, well scoffed a little on that but dirt on that blade or in that housing would be nasty, and while cleaning, check pivot points of TB and around TPS blade on the outside of TB.

What the heck at this point I am game for anything. FIRST thing I notice is I used the BC screws that are ground down on the top half of the threads to allow some TPS adjustment. BIG FUBAR on my part. Since I slotted the TPS holes then when I tightened down, and some times aggressively, I had distorted the brass furrows to a point, but more importantly, I may have had it vibrating around on those skinny style screws, or distorting the furrows, and then distorting the entire TPS, to a point.

On the cleaning the round area external on the TB, that the TPS sensor goes on, it was dirty as hell, also the pivot are was dirty, hey break cleaner and an old white T, and you see it. Internal pivots were dirty and the parts cleaner did a fine job. Then I took some Rod and Reel oil that applies with a needle, and oiled each pivot point and worked the blades a bunch. TPS I used a q-tip, then air.

So use my old screws and tighten it up and start from scratch.

Set TPS, IAC at 110 C for 35 steps, let it cool temp wise, back out and make each adjustment until it starts to the RED Zone on the temp and wait until it is 60 C or so to do each, I don't know after about four adjustments and they were progressive, in other words my IAC was going down but I was running too high on temp. It did set like a stone though and when it hit is stayed in the 35 from 90 to 110 C, and then it dropped only slightly. I ran it to the red zone on the last idle to see and watch it and it was flawless. I let it sit two or three minuets, hit the button and it fired right up, went maybe 1100 RPM, but set in after it went warm, and dead on 35 at 110 C. Go for a ride to heat it up and got the oil up to 200 and stopped, did a re start and fell right in. Ride it a bit more bring it home and do another restart with a minuet or two idle, for the logs.

Well it held, and it seems to be OK, but been here before

I did load the BC 95 TCFI file and the ONLY thing I change was 1375 for speed, unchecked the Auto Nominal IAC and Barometric boxes, checked the Low Fuel light box, put 30 in the IAC number, and that was it!

Now I did have the bike hotter last night, 220 or so on oil. Not a lot of faith yet and will start it one more time before 9:00 or so, to see what is going on, and keep peace with the neighbors.

GRock I have all of your advice printed so as (IF) this setting holds, I will apply some of the things you have taught me as the map builds. One thing I did notice as IAC pulls into place, your IDLE smooths and you have a very DISTINCT pattern to the RPM, as I pulled closer to the magic number 35 or so, the RPM would bounce 969, 1000, 969, 1000 and staying on 1000 more then 969, I COULD not light 1000 continuous.

STB Thank you for your help and suggestions. Not sure on that advance and me with the 10.5 and the 6HG and domed pistons, but if I ever get that far , I will keep it in mind, I basically have always run the stock map and smoothed it a bit.

You know I thought this would be a breeze since I had the learning curve down on on the TCFI I, and at least understood the setup. I know others of us have had this on and off again IAC/TPS and it is a pain. I fought it for months on the TCFI I and stock TB, but once it set it set, never had to worry about it again. I would never go back because from the two initial setups I have done it seems you will eventually get it in, so I would not give up.

We all cant be stupid, can we?

I know I will continue to work toward it because it REALLY woke my bike up in the low end. And once I can stop worry about if it will start without racing, I want to see how close I can get the AFR on each cylinder.

[LAF]

It started went to about 1100 or so, went warm, closed loop, and settled in in about 1 1/2 to 2 minuets tops

Now if it will do it in the morning I will be really impressed

Still getting RED KEY light for a few seconds after start, and that is new with this TB/TCFI II install

[niget2002]

Okay. Now that I think most people have there latest installs working again ... let's talk about timing.

What's the default timing values, and where should I start for adjusting them? Is there any good place on the web to go to find more information about timing and how it affects engines?

[STB]

Originally Posted by Griffiss

OK well that's good info but what about the damn RED KEY! Mine comes on when I turn on my turn signal, then things start to go south. If I use hand signals the bike runs fine. If the RED KEY stays on long enough the bike will shut off, it restarts but damned unerving in the middle of a sweeperwhen the engine dies.

Unerving heck: I would suggest checking the current status of payments on your "pre-need" funeral policy.

If the bike will die while standing still and off the throttle when you hit the turn signal, you have an electrical problem in all probability. If it won't die while standing still when you hit the turn signal but will die while moving and hitting the turn signal, things could be more complicated.

I had all kinds of problems to solve with my system, but none quite like what you describe. That is an obviously dangerous situation you need to remedy ASAP. Wish I could help you. You obviously describe an electrical problem. However................ you might give this a try:

Clear your codes as per the HD manual. Check the code history on the DTT system. Clear the codes on the DTT history, then start your bike and see which event sets the code.

I assume you wait the appropriate time (5 seconds) before hitting the starter button and I assume you wait 30 seconds before taking off and I assume you do not twist the throttle during or shortly before starter operation.

If I had to guess, it is out of sync which the DTT code history will show. And when you give it hard throttle, it will die, but it will run somewhat OK out of sync so long as you putt around and stay off a hard twist of the throttle. The code light will come on for a lot of reasons, but being out of syn is surely one reason. In fact,sometimes that light will not come on even when it is running out of sync but most of the time it will come on and either stay on or go off after a while if it is running out of sync. If your DTT code history shows a bunch of trips out of sync, I would not suspect the turn signal especially if you can't duplicate the problem standing still.

STB

[Griffiss]

I wasn't clear. it only dies after many miles of riding with the red key lit, not imediately after I use the turn signal. It's like the security system finally wakes up and goes oh yea I'm supposed to shut of the engine. I do have led turn signals and maybe thats the cause, somedays the red key just stays on and it runs fine. I am betting on the led turn signals, there is a ballast in the system maybe it has come loose. Now I have a direction to look. The IAC set up has helped the starting problem. It is a bit annoying but like mentioned before it woke up my low end BIG TIME, I have an S&S 585G cam and 10.5 t0 pistons with a ported and slightly decked head, the DTT has made the bike much more drivable and I am not turning back!