Daytona Twin-Tech TCFI tuning

[bbrowncods]

I guess your right. Mine tuned up OK, it would sometimes add fuel to a cell and then after applying both, it would take fuel away, back and forth like it was chasing itself.

Yeh, its nice to see both AFR's on the logging software. They are very near exactly the same. Except for idle. That is a different story. Alot of reversion in that range.

[LAF]

Originally Posted by bbrowncods

I guess your right. Mine tuned up OK, it would sometimes add fuel to a cell and then after applying both, it would take fuel away, back and forth like it was chasing itself.

Yeh, its nice to see both AFR's on the logging software. They are very near exactly the same. Except for idle. That is a different story. Alot of reversion in that range.

Yep I see it big time on my combo. I was thinking of getting a set of Super Traps to try instead of the Ovals I know with my cam and my pipes it is huge. Unfortunately I don't think I can do much about it unless I go 2-1, try the SuperTrapp slip ons, but FIRST I want my duel TB, may go up in the injectors as you did. I know "everyone" says you don't need a bigger TB, larger injectors, but On my Sporty 1200 with SE pistons, mild port, and N2 cams, Dakota Kids bore on that carb was night and day. I am going in steps, TB with stock Injectors and see from there. There is just something about twin 50MM butterflies that just trips my trigger.

My bike runs very different with the PC III on and I find that odd. I am not sure better, but for sure different. I hope this is not some form of ECU degradation from emulating the stock ECU. They have too have something emulating the stock system, the stock ECU I think would be proprietary information.

I wish I could afford to have it tuned with the PC on, and then CONVINCE a certain guy from the North of me to tune the TCFI or do both for me. I would gladly run the 8 hours on it to have it tunned right.

I know it is my inability to operate and comprehend all of the TCFI but I do end up with pretty good fuel lines at WOT and Cruise, I just know the Timing needs set, and the then fuel again, and there is only ONE person I don't know, that can do it.

Anyway the TCFI is cool and you can get your fuel to anywhere you want it, but on the timing it is the starting slope I have know clue about. I mean the 95 setup file is canned and you said set for 10.5 but what about individual cam characteristics, and pipe combo? See that is my issue I have know Idea. Now I can induce ping and then pull it out with either fuel or advance but which to do, at what TPS/RPM position for best performance, is purely trial and error on my part. I guess I could go out and concentrate on each RPM and TPS after marking the throttle, and keep running up the advance and to induce ping and then pull it back, but there really is no piratical way to do that on the street. And even then, so it pings in 2nd gear at 2400 rpm but not in first at 2400 rpm, what to do, add fuel or pull timing.

This TCFI, and doing my build, loose comp nut at 4200 to coincide with the new build, exploding the rocker support plate, installing and removing a GP left side Support, 3.37 gear install, a fiasco and nightmare with an after market cam plate and pump (installed a cam plate and pump 3 times in 4 weeks) that I will never mention or write about again, and now moving to the Race Tech Front End next weekend I can say I know my bike pretty well mechanically, but still can not grasp the Black Art of tunning.

This forum, and it's members are the ONLY reliable source of information in one place, PERIOD, glad to see this sticky, because I need all the tunning help I can get.

[itsafatboy]

Did 3 bikes the other day and like i have heard on the group , i ended up putting "0" in the 2.5% all the way across and from 3000 - up put zeros on the 5% , it worked great on the poping, and you just can trust those reading since all they are going to be are decell tunes at that throttle position, and it ends up taking fuel out and it shouldn't. now this was on non duel o2 setups. they were doing trims on front cylinder and we went ahead and locked out those positions after we were done and the bikes ran alot better.

i was also suprised on the front trims and theese were with bc gerolomy duel runners how much the front trim table adjusted.

my duel o2 goes on my 116" thursday trying a couple things that are new
1. SBC zero lash cam gear
2. Roller - X lifters
maybe this will give me a quite TW8G ride (doughtful)

I am thinking of setting the trim to 100 like i have heard , i run a 53mm single and a 2 into 1 PPHS so i do have some numbers in that table from a trim i did on the old setup but maybe i should just start fresh?


also i noticed on the 2d setup the blm has it at 100 in the idle cells so its running in a standared closed loop mode not like the '1's that use to be in there how is that working out.

[niget2002]

I'm still getting weird warm up issues.

Even watching the values, everything is showing fine, then it'll die. It does this about 3 times, then all of a sudden runs fine.

The other issue I'm having is if it's been sitting in the sun for a while (texas heat), when I crank it up, it gets into a weird rich->lean->rich oscillation for a few minutes before smoothing out again.

I think I have a few logs of both cases if someone wants to take a gander at them.

[itsafatboy]

i will look at them
Bobhouck@comcast.net

can you send your map as well.

we had this issue on one bike and it ended up being a bad spark plug i know sounds strange but it ran fine after we changed plugs.

but send your maps . thanks

[LAF]

Just got the ECU back from DTT and got it in. Ran a live view to see if all was OK and it is, did a couple of heat soak re starts for IAC Start Adder Table and all is as I sent it.

niget2002 you may want to look at that section on tunning, I know I had to use the aggressive table they outline versus the "normal".

Next adventure is this: http://www.bcheads.com/fuel.htm ordered today, should have it Monday or so. Should be fun for sure.

[Griffiss]

My ECM went winging its way to Daytona today, after 5 days of uneartly rain wish I had gone with it. I can't wait until the weekend when I put it all back and start all over again. It will be nice to start fresh with what I have leaned from tuning the DTT 1.

[sstan]

LAF, I just picked up a used dual runner throttle body on Ebay. I'll be installing it this weekend with the IID and my just received remapped ECM. It should be real interesting. I think I'll start over with a new map using the gerolamy file that DTT supplies. Let's compare notes on progress.

Steve

[LAF]

Originally Posted by sstan

LAF, I just picked up a used dual runner throttle body on Ebay. I'll be installing it this weekend with the IID and my just received remapped ECM. It should be real interesting. I think I'll start over with a new map using the gerolamy file that DTT supplies. Let's compare notes on progress.

Steve

Yep we need to document and get it down what we find on this adventure. I thought there was another "Duel Runner" using a TCFI here but cant remember who.

I talked to Mark there, and I don't think he would sell you a twin 50 mm UNLESS you have a TCFI. He just does not feel ANY piggy back unit that uses the stock ECU can handle it. Nice guy to talk to, said to make sure you do the cables in order. Hope you get instructions but if not I will share mine if you are not done by then. Not sure but you must do the lower then the uppers as he said they are so tight if you put the top idle cable in you cant get to the bottom one. His words, it is a big unit, and is tight in that space. Also mentioned on some after market heads you may need to clearance in the corners of the bracket for this beastly to fit.

[niget2002]

I once mentioned getting a Gerolomy unit, but with current finances it'll have to wait.

[STB]

Originally Posted by niget2002

I'm still getting weird warm up issues.

Even watching the values, everything is showing fine, then it'll die. It does this about 3 times, then all of a sudden runs fine.

The other issue I'm having is if it's been sitting in the sun for a while (texas heat), when I crank it up, it gets into a weird rich->lean->rich oscillation for a few minutes before smoothing out again.

I think I have a few logs of both cases if someone wants to take a gander at them.

Everything you mention above I lived with for months with the single O2 sensor set up. I had three bikes: a morning bike, a noon bike and an evening bike: the tuning changed three times a day on the same day on the same bike. Seems like 11 A.M. would do the trick as well as 8 P.M.. So, I named my bike "Maybe - Maybe Not." Would it start, would it idle, what time of day was it? I wish I could tell you in 20 words or less how "it got fixed." All I can say is be aggressive with the alpha N at the top horizontal row, save each change and when you get close, take a break and go for a putt. Then in a day or two refine it until you get closer and closer.

Finally, if you are worried about heat issues if you have to lean your bike out, look hard at the Advance timing since if it is too low, you get more heat generated. I easily took 15C degees out of my ET with better advance. Since my engine is not a race engine which will be rebuilt after 100 runs or so, I don't take the advance to the rattle point and back it off. Close is good enough for me: good fuel consumption numbers, no decel popping, 115 to 120degee C ET, no knock and decent performance tells me it is close to spot on for an enthusiast and reliable riding. I just hope it stays that way......... .

Seabrook

[LAF]

I am surprised you had that issue for so long. I think it is a known quirk.

One of the first things I experienced was engine rpm drop when the bike got warm 120 C. I was told to not allow BLM changes in 0% and 2% TPS, and to really run fat in the idle RPM range. Also what you put in the cell is not necessarily what is going to show up in the log file. In other words you may have to put 12.7 in your AFR at idle to get 13.2 or whatever.

Also the Heat Based RPM table can be your friend.

Seems odd. Is the heat baking the TB and screwing with the TPS Sensor? You free air calibrated? Did not run any Octane booster? TPS and IAC were right? Have you gotten into the habit of working the throttle grip before each start to ensure butterfly/TPS is 0 set?

What type of motor work?

I have forged pistons so even in the summer they need a good while to get warm and expand. I have always warmed forged pistons longer then cast as I was taught that way. Anyway point is the TCFI NEEDS to warm up, if you fire it up, and ride off you are in for some evil for awhile. It takes like 180 sec to go warm off the O2's. Not a biggie to me as I have to wait anyway.

STB glad to hear you are squared away now. That is why we need to talk and share this stuff.

Sorry to all else, but there is nothing controlling EFI like a IID. Anything else is just a mindfuc for the ECU.

I did not always feel this way and still am not in love with Customer Support, but others are getting some good information and building a rapport with Chris.

Originally Posted by STB

Everything you mention above I lived with for months with the single O2 sensor set up. I had three bikes: a morning bike, a noon bike and an evening bike: the tuning changed three times a day on the same day on the same bike. Seems like 11 A.M. would do the trick as well as 8 P.M.. So, I named my bike "Maybe - Maybe Not." Would it start, would it idle, what time of day was it? I wish I could tell you in 20 words or less how "it got fixed." All I can say is be aggressive with the alpha N at the top horizontal row, save each change and when you get close, take a break and go for a putt. Then in a day or two refine it until you get closer and closer.

Finally, if you are worried about heat issues if you have to lean your bike out, look hard at the Advance timing since if it is too low, you get more heat generated. I easily took 15C degees out of my ET with better advance. Since my engine is not a race engine which will be rebuilt after 100 runs or so, I don't take the advance to the rattle point and back it off. Close is good enough for me: good fuel consumption numbers, no decel popping, 115 to 120degee C ET, no knock and decent performance tells me it is close to spot on for an enthusiast and reliable riding. I just hope it stays that way......... .

Seabrook

[bbrowncods]

The IID now goes closed loop after 30 seconds. No warmup issues that I have found although the 2D warmup maps are still there, I don't think they are used after 30 seconds for AFR.

[LAF]

Originally Posted by bbrowncods

The IID now goes closed loop after 30 seconds. No warmup issues that I have found although the 2D warmup maps are still there, I don't think they are used after 30 seconds for AFR.

Good stuff to know as I have not ridden due to what I call "Ark weather", read, rain and floods here in PA. I can only go off of what the TCFI used to exhibit on my bike, it will NOT run RIGHT until it goes warm. IF you watch live view to see just how LONG it takes to go from cold to warm on the screen.

I want to clarify that the quirk I refer to is the 0 and 2% TPS and BLM, and increasing the ET based RPM table, NOT a no start. I have never seen or heard of this before on the TCFI. Have you tried to load a map and start fresh? Are you at the latest firmware on the TCFI?

Again what are the mods? 95" or 88"? Stock? They do not recommend this unit for a stock bike so hope that is not it.

[STB]

Originally Posted by LAF

I am surprised you had that issue for so long. I think it is a known quirk.

One of the first things I experienced was engine rpm drop when the bike got warm 120 C. I was told to not allow BLM changes in 0% and 2% TPS, and to really run fat in the idle RPM range. Also what you put in the cell is not necessarily what is going to show up in the log file. In other words you may have to put 12.7 in your AFR at idle to get 13.2 or whatever.

Also the Heat Based RPM table can be your friend.

Seems odd. Is the heat baking the TB and screwing with the TPS Sensor? You free air calibrated? Did not run any Octane booster? TPS and IAC were right? Have you gotten into the habit of working the throttle grip before each start to ensure butterfly/TPS is 0 set?

What type of motor work?

I have forged pistons so even in the summer they need a good while to get warm and expand. I have always warmed forged pistons longer then cast as I was taught that way. Anyway point is the TCFI NEEDS to warm up, if you fire it up, and ride off you are in for some evil for awhile. It takes like 180 sec to go warm off the O2's. Not a biggie to me as I have to wait anyway.

STB glad to hear you are squared away now. That is why we need to talk and share this stuff.

Sorry to all else, but there is nothing controlling EFI like a IID. Anything else is just a mindfuc for the ECU.

I did not always feel this way and still am not in love with Customer Support, but others are getting some good information and building a rapport with Chris.

The issue was not nearly as "known" in Texas as it probably was in PA, so I had it for quite a while until I found this board and gave it a shot with a post. Chris forgot to mention the known quirk which quirked my bike for a few quirky months. All is well now. Shortened warm up time and warm up temps for O2 control works well in this hot part of Texas.

STB