Screamin' Eagle SUPER Race Tuner discussion

[rgsg]

Can anyone verify the pinout for the cable from the tuner to the bike? I just bought one and can't communicate with it. I can see it on com5 on my computer, but the red light on the tuner never flashes when I switch the ignition and run switches on. I don't have connections on pins 6,8 of the db9 connector, but do on 7,9.

[bugdude]

Originally Posted by rgsg

Can anyone verify the pinout for the cable from the tuner to the bike? I just bought one and can't communicate with it. I can see it on com5 on my computer, but the red light on the tuner never flashes when I switch the ignition and run switches on. I don't have connections on pins 6,8 of the db9 connector, but do on 7,9.

I can't verify the pinout from the tuner (VCI) to the Deutsch connector on the bike. However, the first time you connect the VCI to your computer it will recognize this as a new device (at this point you don't have to connect to the bike yet). If you haven't done so already, go ahead and load the SERT driver in your computer (you'll need the original disk for this). After the driver is loaded for the VCI, go ahead and connect to the bike, start the Super Race Tuner software and you should get the connectivity icon. The red light on the VCI will not come on, this light and the red button is used during dyno testing for recording purposes...shouldn't affect us when reprogramming the ECM (so I've been told).

[bugdude]

Finally got to road test my 08 Night Train after reprogramming the ECM, installing the Thunderheaders and the SE Air Cleaner. I noticed the new T-headers smoked quite a bit on the first start up, don't remember it doing that on my 04 FXDX. Anyway, rode for about 40 miles and didn't experience any popping during decel or between gear shifts. Checked front and rear plugs after my short ride...nice light tan color. I'm totally satisfied with the map I created.

I'll post some pics on the "who has a Night Train thread" later on.

[boja53]

Originally Posted by killerbob

What I have done: New bike 103 cu-in Stage 2 kit installed by dealer + SE mufflers.. Found the right map and assume the VE is pretty close. I have lowered all AFR 14.6 cells to 14.0. the result is that the engine in those areas runs a litthe richer than intended (by emmision control) Further more I have lowered AFR to 13.0 in the Idle region - That alone takes a lot of heat away - and it seems like I can stay in traffic jams forever..

Further more I have lowered the cold idle a bit and lowered the temperature where the engine goes to normal idle

As you can see - you get CONTROL ... .... No need letting the dealer do it - it is straight forward

Finally received my tuner! After reading the instructions I installed/updated the software without problems. Happy with your advice KB; I selected the file with the se a/c and "after market" exhausts. So I changed the AFR to 14 and 13 too (my own responsability) and noticed a smoother riding and less heat from the cil. I also disabled the valve. It was closed but opened when I flashed the ecm. I changed the (stat) rpm to 800; it sounds better stationair. Sound is also better with the valve open. Why did you lower the cold idle and the temp where the engine goes to normal idle?

[rgsg]

bugdude,

Thanks for the info .. turns out I was on the wrong connector! I kept reading there are only 3 wires on the Deutsch connector and I had 4 on the one I was using under the seat. I took my left side cover off and found the right one. Boy did I breathe a sigh of relief when I got the green connection!!! I only changed my pipe for now, Fatcat 2-1QB, but I have an SE A/C on the way. The closest map I could find was with both installed, so I loaded that for starters. I changed the AFR to 14.1 and saved that. Now I need to get on it and ride to test out.

Thanks again

[killerbob]

BOJA53 well... The high idle is there to do what ??... Well it is primarily there to make sure the engine runs also when the rich setting is trying to kill it... Does your car do the same ?? Not mine... I would like to lower even further so that high idle comes if it is really cold (but then I rarely ride).. Would prefer that it goes directly to 1000 rpm regardless engine temp ... but I guess it will take som tweaking on the cold enrichment.

Does anyone see any problems doing that ?

[boja53]

Originally Posted by killerbob

BOJA53 well... The high idle is there to do what ??... Well it is primarily there to make sure the engine runs also when the rich setting is trying to kill it... Does your car do the same ?? Not mine... I would like to lower even further so that high idle comes if it is really cold (but then I rarely ride).. Would prefer that it goes directly to 1000 rpm regardless engine temp ... but I guess it will take som tweaking on the cold enrichment.

Does anyone see any problems doing that ?

After your expl. I see my question should have started with "what do you mean" instead of "Why".
Problems: in cold condition you might risk stalling; a (big twin)2 cil engine is more sensitive than a 4 or 6 cil?

[GUIDOLICIOUS]

Wow, I have been searching this sight for info on pipes, and tuners. On my 06 I installed the pipes, and ac but let the dealer install the sert. I was considerin doing it myself this time and after reading the posts I sort of realize i might be in a little over my head. Is it possible I could do serious damage by installing wrong maps or adjusting AFR?(dont know what AFR is) I'm a little more savvy with electronics than mechanics i have to admit.

P.S Tons of good info in here. Been glued to laptap every night for about a week.

[sc-eagle]

Thank you all for this good informations. I have an old SERT (without SUPER), download the new SUPER software. Did anyone know, if I buy a new printer cable (usb to D-Sub 9) the old SERT is running with the new SUPER software? I hope, it works...... My bike is a 2007 FXDSE with V&H Radius 2in1 and a Screamin-eagle heavy breather. What is the best map for this configuration? Thanks in advance and sorry for my bad language, I'am from Germany....

[boja53]

@Guidolicious: I'm a virgin with this matter too. But got some good advice from killerbob (see previous posts) and others. I followed the instructions that came with the supertuner and learned from the training dvd. On my bike I changed the orig. ac to se ac and added other (more open) pipes. In the software I selected the 2007 first file for se ac and se short pipes. I opened the file concerning the afr section and adjusted the Air Fuel Ratio according to the findings of killerbob to lower the heat by richening the fuel against air (see post). After that I opened the rotation section to lower the stat. rotation. These changes need to be saved in a file which you download, by using the supertuner, into the bike. (story told in virgin language). Can you do something wrong? Yes, I quess, hope not, so I ask around....
@sc eagle: Sorry can't help, but others surely will; they helped me.
@killerbob: I think I've lowered my stat. rotation to low; sometimes when I stop the engine dies. And when rotation is low, for example while turning into another direction, I sometimes notice a sort of "knock", looks like the engine makes an extra rotation without firing the plugs (sounds like the driving rods are loose). I need to increase the rot. or lower the fuel at this rotation. What do you think?

[killerbob]

OK - lets take this a little from the top

AFR: Air Fuel Ratio ... This is obviously the ratio between air and fuel.. In the different maps you will see pretty much identical AFR tables - alt least for 07 and 08 models. The numbers in the tabels usually goes from 12,5 to 14,6. The number is how many more times air compared to fuel.. So 12,5 means 12,5 times more air than fuel. Actually the term air is incorect as it is Oxygen. To acheive what is calles stoichiometric combustion you'll need 14,7 grams of oxygen for each gram of gas. In other words if you burn one gram of gas it will take 14,7 grams of oxygen for the gas to burn completely.... So as you'll figure out a lower value of AFR means that we supply more gas than the supplied oxygen can burn. If AFR is higher than 14,7 we'll have unburned oxygen in the exhaust and if the AFR is lower than 14,7 we'll have unburned gas in the exhaust....

Why would we want either ?... Well lower AFR than 14,7 is good for cooling of the engine. Gas that passes the engine unburnt hugely helps cooling. For this reason it is good when running wide open throttle to avoid overheating - and it is allso good when idling for long period of times.. However it polutes

Higher than 14,7 is not really good for anything except polution. It will heat up your engine and aircooled engines will have trouble... In liquid cooled engines lower than 14,7 works just fine - as they have no problem transporting the extra heat away - They do however not produce the maximum no of horsepower - but they polute less

On 07 later Harleys we have 02 sensors in the exhaustpipes. They meassure the amount of remaining oxygen in the exhaust and adjust slightly to make sure 14,6 is achieved in real life... (yes 14,6 - not 14,7). For this reason you'll have to set AFR to 14,6 in ranges where you want the O2 sensors to be active... If NOT set at 14,6 the O2 sensors are automaticly disabled

THE PROBLEM is - that to be able to use tha AFR table to ANYTHING you will have to know the amount of Oxygen in the engine under ALL circomstances. An engine with a 96 cu-in displacement will in theory transport 96 cu-in air through the engine pr. revolution (1586 cc's) So an engine with this displacement running 3000 rpm will pump - in theory 3000 times 1,586 litres = 4758 litres of air every minut !!! (IN THEORY) ... Problem is that the intake, the aircleaner, the valves, the speed of the engine, the exhaust and a couple of other factors all influences on the ACTUAL amount of air transported

Therefore you'll see the really big difference in the maps in the supertuner in the tables "VE" VE is Volumetric efficiency and is entered in the supertuner in percent. This is the hard part - and actually THIS is what we want the tuner on a dyno to meassure in real life. When we use the supplied maps from HD we do not take into account that EVERY engine is slightly different and that it gets worse when we add different A/C's and Exhausts. In my map VE for the front cylinder at 3000 rpm and 20% Trottle the VE is 99% ... So actually it is pretty close to the theoretical value - but at 10% throttle the VE is only 84% (throttle restricts the air)

So - what the Supertuner/EFI does is to look in the AFR table for the actual RPM and manifold pressure to know what AFR we want - Then it looks into the VE tables to know how much air the engine can transport at the given rpm and throttle possition. It allso looks at engine temperature and the tabel for enrichment at low temperatures and it looks at the atmosferic pressure to know the amount of oxygen in the transported air.. All these informations are used to calculate how long the fuel injectors should be left open at each air intake in each cylinder. to achieve the desired AFR

If you go fast at 6000 rpm these lookups are performed 12000 times per minut or 200 times per second...do that with your calculator !! ;-)

So the important thing is to find a map that is as close to your engine/A/C/Exhaust setup as possible... Even if you find a perfect match - the actual VE of YOUR engine IS slightly different than the VE's in the map.. THIS is why HD have put in the O2 sensors - to have some feedback how things actually went.

I found a perfect match for my engine (Touring Exhaust, 1690 SE, SE Aircleaner, 255 cams) - however I have modified my AFR map as follows. All cells that were 14,6 (o2 sensor enabled) I have set to 14,0. AFR around Idle is set to 13.0 - the rest is left unchanged

The ideal thing is to get at proper tune at a Dyno to know the actual VE's of your engine. But you really can't do that on a new engine - you'll have to wait untill it is run-in... So I did what I did to ensure NO lean spots and wanted to complete with a proper tune... However now my bike is fully run in (7000 miles) - but it runs so darn good that I have trouble justifying a day on the dyno... I have had it on a Dyno to meassure RWHP --- 88 HP - 97 torque (135 nm) ... Maybe I can get a little more with a proper tune - but I doubt that my butt -dyno can tell...

Downside of my AFR is that it is pretty thirsty .. Will have to do something about that (Higher AFR)

Hope this helps

Boja53 ... I'm running 920 rpms idle - No problems at all.. Try it - if it doesn't work for you something else is not set right

[boja53]

KB: Thanks for explaning. I'm set on 800 rpms idle now. I'll change it to 920 and see what happens. Jan.

[boja53]

I've changed the rpm to 920, as suggested by KB, and the afr to 14from 1000 rpm; problems solved. thanks. My exhausts (ex streetbob originals) drilled open, do the SE (shortcut) imitation on the selected supertuner map. When I open the throttle a bit I can hear a squeeking sound in my right exhaust (the one with the valve). Maybe the "drilled open hole" has sharp edges causing the squeeking, or maybe the valve (since opened by supertuner)squeeks (no mise nor coalmine canaries inserted). Anyone ever noticed similar?

[Ozzie In Arabia]

Lower than 14,7 is not really good for anything except polution. It will heat up your engine and aircooled engines will have trouble... In liquid cooled engines lower than 14,7 works just fine - as they have no problem transporting the extra heat away - They do however not produce the maximum no of horsepower - but they polute less

Hello Killerbob, I think you got this one backwards my friend.......

While 14:7 is stioch.........................and is required at steady throttle for good fuel economy.....................the ECU needs to be set up at 14.1 max on all maps to achieve the cooling effect required......................on air cooled motors.

Lowering the A/F to achieve 13.5/7 overall achieves excellent power increases but will effect economy..............

All of the aftermarket EFI Units that piggy back to the ECU trick the injector pulse widths to increase fuel which lowers the A/F, cools the motor, and gets the bike running like it should.

For all the new guys (including me) that have or are going to get the Super Sert...........you need to find a map that is close to the year of your bike and the one that suits the mods you have or will do and load it to your bike........................

Currently my March Build 2008 Fatboy that has the V&H Big Radius 2:1 and V&H A/c has only 2 maps available that I can and have tried.......(numbers not present on this computer) (176PZ and 205TC I think) These maps are for 2007/8 Engine, with SE A/c and slip ons for 1580cc engine.

So if you have changed A/C and pipes then simply find the year in the SERT MAP Index, look at the column that shows the screamin eagle modes, check the engine size (2008 = 1580cc) and load that map into your Super Sert.

Once you can view the A/F Tables then do the following..........and this does apply to ALL Super SERT maps (if you follow my logic)

Adjust all 14.6 cells in the A/F table to 14.1 (this will lower engine heat considerably............experimentation might need additional lowering in some cells and this is where you need to remember your throttle position and what you are experiencing when you ride the bike and notice the changes.) (Much trial and error)

Adjust all column 1 and column 2 cells in the 750rpm to 2000rpm cells to 13.2 (this will lower decel popping quite a bit)

Your bike should start nicely, idle correctly, and drive really well and run mucher cooler than stock.

---------------------------------------------------------------

Against popular opinion.................the times when you will destroy a motor with the map you adjust and download into the bike.............is when you go above 14.7 A/F Ratio and increase timing..........this gets you into super lean conditions which can and does increase cylinder temperatures to the point of melting your pistons.........then you grenade your motor.

Most times all you have done is added fuel and your economy turns to sh!t, so stop worrying about stuffing your motor with the sert............

Once you get used to playing with it and you read more about EFI and apply that logic to your tuning ideas the SERT will get easier and easier to use..........................

Or you can go to your local tuner like Doc in Florida, spend an afternoon with an absolute legend in the motorcycle industry and get him to set your bike up......................

Me........well I have the dreaded curious mind syndrome and just love to play and experiment..................

Hope this eases the pain some of you are having with the SERT.

All the best, Ozzie

[killerbob]

Ozzie ... well just read my post and didn't undestand it ..... Ofcause you are right and I have changed "lower" to "higher" .... then it makes sence... And no I havn't got it backwards - should be clear when reading the rest... Thanks for blowing the whistle

What you suggest is EXACTLY what I have done on my bike ... Actually dealer put in the canned map for my bike before deliverey in April - before they even fired it up I hooked up my laptop and lovered all the 14.6 cells to 14.0 The Idle cells I lowered further to 13

It have been GREAT - and after running in I've had it on the dyno - 87.5 HP - 98,5 Tq ... pretty good without a proper tune

The last three weeks I've had holiday - time to play.. I wanted to try how 14,6 felt (O2 Active).. WOAAAHHH what a difference ... Well - highway not that big a difference - I did however have a "lugging" feeling around 65 mph /2500 rpm in 6th where it use to be fine.. Had to go to 70 before shifting to 6th... But then - CITY .. NOW I undestand what you guys complain about HEAT --- ambient were not even that high - around 80.

In the tuner I have set the idle to go to 800 rpm above 160 deg C engine temp ... Took 10 mins of City traffic to get there... I have NEVER been there with 13 AFR idle and 14.0 in the "14,6 cells" - not EVER in 7500 miles not even after 40 mins of stop and go traffic

Only advantage with the "14,6" map was better MPG ... but who cares - Gas is cheap these days ... pheww .. After all it is not that bad - On "my" map I get 35 mpg normally and 30 if I push it .. I'll live with it... This is an Ultra with me on top 330 lbs bones and fat