Vance & Hines Fuelpak Talk.

[AeroSport]

Originally Posted by Jeffytune

Hi Sport.

Ok, I think you are confusing the newer Air fuel systems (Like the Thundermax autotune and DTT) and a oxygen sensor system.
An Air fuel sensor can operate in a wide range of fuel conditions, (anything from 7:1 to 19:1 AFR).
An oxygen sensor works in a far narrower area (14:1 to 15.3:1), so the Harley system only is in closed loop at Idle and while holding speed. Decal and acceleration, the system is in open loop.
Also, what every system out there is trying to do is correct the VE (Volumetric Efficiency) program in the ECM one way or another.
When we install low restriction exhaust and air filters, we are adding to how much air can flow in and out of the engine. Harley's do not use a Mass air flow sensor, they use a speed density system to set the Injection ratio.

The fuelpak, in it's simplest form (As I understand it) is in line with the ECM, it reads the same information the ECM does, recalculates and intercepts the injection signal, and adjusts it to the program V&H gives you to put in.
At Idle, or holding speed, when the O2's are active, the load is at it least, so why not use the O2's at that point even if it's at 14.7:1? Because the load is low, the heat it generates will be low as well.
Once you crack the throttle, your in open loop, the O2's are just along for the ride, and the fuelpak can change the fuel curve to what it needs to be, per the program.
Since the fuelpak is in-line with the ECM, and is reading the TPS, it can even speed up the delivery to a throttle opening event, getting rid of of hesitation.
It is a very complex system you get in this little package.

Jeffy,

Your answer doesn't make any sense to me. I fully understand the difference between a narrow band switching O2 sensor like Harley uses and a wideband sensor used in autotuning systems, and am very familiar with EFI theory and technology.
You said there is less heat at idle? If thats the case why does HD have an optional heat management system that engages at idle and low steady speeds because the bike runs so hot there due to the factory preset 14.7 A/F ratio?
It would appear that you did not understand the nature of my question. I was asking what benefit systems that do not remap the entire fuel curve but only from 50% throttle on up, such as the fuel pak and some of the others available provide? The bikes have the most drivability and heat issues in the area that is unchanged. So how do these units compensate for those things. It seems that the transition from a 14.7 A/F ratio to the new remapped richer settings above 50% throttle in your map would cause more hesitation than the stock map as you now have a more radical transition from lean to rich. The factory engineers at least had a somewhat smooth transitional curve, but now it more peak & valley rather than an optimal flat style. I also was asking how V&H makes adjustments when people indicate the bikes aren't running the way they want in the area that is controlled by the closed loop system.
It is obvious to me based on your answer that your don't really understand EFI workings but just used a bunch of terms that you thought would impress me.

Is there some one else that wants to chime in an give me real answer rather than just dropping terminology?

[xandvphyle]

Originally Posted by AeroSport

Is there some one else that wants to chime in an give me real answer rather than just dropping terminology?

I hope this was tongue in cheek, because if it wasn't you are either one of the most arrogant characters around or are in real need of a course in manners.
maybe the FNG has something to do with it.

[ceraaa42]

Originally Posted by AeroSport

Jeffy,

You said there is less heat at idle? If thats the case why does HD have an optional heat management system that engages at idle and low steady speeds because the bike runs so hot there due to the factory preset 14.7 A/F ratio?

I will address this issue. This heat management system has nothing to do with 14.7 A/F ratio. It has to do simply with engine over heating, as if you were to sit in traffic to the point the engine got hot from lack of airflow past the cylinders. It will richen the mixture and if I remember right it will alternately skip spark every other cylinder firing for the same reason.

By the way, great second post, nice way to come in as a new member.

I'm impressed, no really, I am,

Chris

[onephsyco1]

I was under the impression , The parade download ,
Will shut the fuel injector off on the rear cylinder .
It adjust the idle also.
So the rear cylinder is just an air compressor.

Jack

[AeroSport]

The parade download is different than the heat management system that I was referring to. Harley has a three phase heat management system,when engine head temp reaches 300 degrees, that in the first phase shuts down the injector pulse on every other revolution, phase 2 richens the fuel mixture as well and phase three changes timing as well.

My 2nd post was somewhat testy due to the fact that I posed a very specific circumstance and question and got a very rudimentary treatise on how someone thinks fuel injection and closed loop feedback systems work.

Whether your new or not don't you think it is appropriate to get a answer that relates to the question posed when someone is specifically replying to your post rather than their understanding of how a EFI system works.

[firewrench]

Here we go...................

[ceraaa42]

Jeff,

I would not respond to Areosport from here on. Something tells me this is a set up. Possibly he works for Vance & Hines, does not like you helping others or something of the sort.

He does not state any question related to his bike or a running problem. I wonder why? My recommendation to him for a question of this magnatude would be that he take it up with the engineers at V&H and report back here so we can all learn.

You put a lot of time in to help others here and it's appreciated. Don't let this guy get you down.

Chris

[Jeffytune]

Originally Posted by AeroSport

Jeffy,

Your answer doesn't make any sense to me. I fully understand the difference between a narrow band switching O2 sensor like Harley uses and a wideband sensor used in autotuning systems, and am very familiar with EFI theory and technology.
You said there is less heat at idle? If thats the case why does HD have an optional heat management system that engages at idle and low steady speeds because the bike runs so hot there due to the factory preset 14.7 A/F ratio?
It would appear that you did not understand the nature of my question. I was asking what benefit systems that do not remap the entire fuel curve but only from 50% throttle on up, such as the fuel pak and some of the others available provide? The bikes have the most drivability and heat issues in the area that is unchanged. So how do these units compensate for those things. It seems that the transition from a 14.7 A/F ratio to the new remapped richer settings above 50% throttle in your map would cause more hesitation than the stock map as you now have a more radical transition from lean to rich. The factory engineers at least had a somewhat smooth transitional curve, but now it more peak & valley rather than an optimal flat style. I also was asking how V&H makes adjustments when people indicate the bikes aren't running the way they want in the area that is controlled by the closed loop system.
It is obvious to me based on your answer that your don't really understand EFI workings but just used a bunch of terms that you thought would impress me.

Is there some one else that wants to chime in an give me real answer rather than just dropping terminology?

The 14.7:1 is not the sole reason why the new Harley's run hot, my 2006 FLHT ran just as hot in stock form, and it had a CV carburetor.
The reason why it gets so hot is more to do with all the EPA mandated baffles in the air box and mufflers to keep the bike under the 80db level, when you slow down the air flow through an engine (And as we all know, an engine is nothing other then a air pump) the air coming in has more time to absorb heat from the engine, and the exhaust has more time to transfer heat to the engine.
Installing the free flow system is how you get the engine to run cooler, more cooler air coming in, and the hot exhaust being pushed out faster, less time to transfer the heat.
Now, if your in stop and go traffic will it overheat?...Depends how long, how slow and how hot it is outside, but any bike that is air cooled will.
The Harley parade fan can helps to cool down the engine, since you live in a area of the country known for high temps, I think that would be a good investment for you.

That is why I pointed to the VE, it has more to do with the heat then the fuel being at 14.7:1.

[Jeffytune]

Originally Posted by ceraaa42

Jeff,

I would not respond to Areosport from here on. Something tells me this is a set up. Possibly he works for Vance & Hines, does not like you helping others or something of the sort.

He does not state any question related to his bike or a running problem. I wonder why? My recommendation to him for a question of this magnitude would be that he take it up with the engineers at V&H and report back here so we can all learn.

You put a lot of time in to help others here and it's appreciated. Don't let this guy get you down.

Chris

I would think it more likely he works for PC, or is truly confused,.........................or he is just a troll.

[Jeffytune]

Originally Posted by firewrench

Here we go...................

I know, it took almost 330 post to get one.

Oh well, if he goes on with it. I will have his post pulled.

Intelligent questions are always welcome, civil discussions are encouraged, polite disagreements are always answered to the best of our ability.

[firewrench]

Well, I have some questions. Being a carb guy, I do not have a lot of experience with the Fuelpak. My buddy has an 08 with the F/P and is getting a decel pop, and i am going to attempt to help him.
Any ideas on which mode to adjust? Do I need to find out which map has been installed? Is there a way to find that out on the F/P itself? That ought to lead me to a few more questions down the road. Thanks for any and all help.

[Jeffytune]

Hi Firewrench.

The 2008 Fuelpak will have the version 13, and that is different from the version 12 most of us have, so I would ask V&H for help on that one.

But as to the pop, you may want to check a few first...
Look at the exhaust gaskets at the head, if they are leaking that will suck in air, and that can cause the pop.

Next check the joint where the muffler slips on, if there is a leak there, it too can cause the pop.

I have also found that if you are not closing the throttle on decel, it will pop far easier.

[firewrench]

I will check the exhaust, he had the Big Radius system put on at the dealer before he picked it up. Thanks

[tatertot]

Hello I have a 2008 Roadking with the fuelpak, SE air cleaner, and Rush 1.75 slipons. I am still getting some decel popping even after fixing exhaust leaks. I have tried changing mode 23 to 15 as per advise here. It has decreased it somewhat but remains. Would the popping have anything to do with the Rush slipons? would changing them to the 2.25 baffle have any effect? I am getting 39 mpg currently. The plugs insulator is white, electrode is off white, tan. My head pipes have blued a ways down but slipons are fine. I like the way it runs. Just wondering if the fuelpak is doing its job in helping cool things off. Any ideas? Thanks in advance.

Larry

[Jeffytune]

Originally Posted by tatertot

Hello I have a 2008 Roadking with the fuelpak, SE air cleaner, and Rush 1.75 slipons. I am still getting some decel popping even after fixing exhaust leaks. I have tried changing mode 23 to 15 as per advise here. It has decreased it somewhat but remains. Would the popping have anything to do with the Rush slipons? would changing them to the 2.25 baffle have any effect? I am getting 39 mpg currently. The plugs insulator is white, electrode is off white, tan. My head pipes have blued a ways down but slipons are fine. I like the way it runs. Just wondering if the fuelpak is doing its job in helping cool things off. Any ideas? Thanks in advance.

Larry

Hi Larry.

The unit you have is the Version 13 (Most of us are using the version 12, the 13 is for the 2008 tour bikes) and, as I have been lead to believe the cells are different for the Version 13.
You need to call in to Vance and Hines for adjusting instructions for yours.