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Tuner won't release map

10K views 59 replies 21 participants last post by  todd comer 
#1 ·
Now what?

Pretty simple. Motor was built, tuned, and paid for. Aren't I entitled to a copy of my map?

Tuned with TTS Mastertune. I can retrieve a copy of the map in MTE format, which is unreadable and uneditable. The MTE can be reloaded but cannot be altered.

I need to alter the map, and the tuner is flat ignoring any request to release the map. Is this legit? Very expensive tune and build.


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#8 ·
I've always called bullsh!t on tuners that won't release the maps. You are paying for that map as part of the tuning service. It's no different than a surveyor refusing to release a map of your property after staking out the area for a new addition. The surveyor is providing a service and the map is a resulting product of that service. You paid for it, you own it and in reality it becomes part of the bike. If enough of these fuks ended up in court for this kind of sh!t you would see it stop.

But as Bob said, the best thing to do is find out up front if they are going to give you the map. If not, find another tuner. As far as I'm concerned, if the tuner isn't going to release the map they are crooked as a snake or too stupid to be in a service business.
 
#3 ·
Being that the dealers can view MTE file, can they make the adjustments? In other words, is it an editable file for a dealer willing or able (smog legalities?) to do it?

The map negotiation was up front, and my retention of the file was a major point from the beginning -- to which he fully agreed.

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#5 ·
LoneEagle...... been there done that, until I'm blue in the face. Doesn't seem to matter. I just want the file now so I can do what I need to do before Laughlin. It's my map, it's tailor fit to my bike and nobody else's. I owe this mechanic not one penny, he owes me my map. Pretty simple.

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#6 ·
have you tried to retrieve the MTE
if the tuner used version 1.60 or newer,then you cant retrieve the current map as a mte. you should have a mte saved from before the ecm was flashed with the new software. if not? you cant unlock the ECM .
if it was tuned with pre 1.60 software you can pull the current map as a mte.
I doubt he used the older software,unless he has not updated his software for a long time. if you load the disk and run the updater then your screwed because the new version that locks the ECM overwrites the old software .
regardless ....you should be able to get your MTE and current tune from him. (if he even saved a mte)
 
#7 ·
I have the .MTE, no problem. And I can use the .MTE to restore, again no problem. I can see the .MTE file in my windows explorer, it's just not accessible to me in any way other than to restore the ECM back to this map.

I did run the updater on MY end, not sure what version was used when this was saved to the ECM.

I can't view the .MTE to edit it. That's my problem to solve. My understanding/belief is that the HD DEALERS can edit .MTE's. I'm thinking this may be my solution. Does anyone know this?

I'm really needing to get this thing right before Laughlin next week. Hate taking these things down to the wire, and had NO idea this dude would withhold the map like this. :whatever:



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#10 ·
My guess is he doesn't want his work critiqued. It's very easy to see his changes compared to base maps.
 
#11 ·
Did you pay by credit card? Maybe you could contest the amount? IMO, you paid for the MAP to be custom made for your bike and therefore you own the map, not them. If you ever have a problem on a road trip and you don't have a copy of the map available to you, you could be left high and dry as they say.

This is a piss poor practice and I hate to see it happen. I hope you fight it.

Good Luck!
 
#12 · (Edited)
I paid a while back.

When I originally picked up and paid for the bike, he gave me a copy of the map PER OUR ORIGINAL AGREEMENT. After riding, I noticed several rough spots/glitches in the map -- which he acknowledged and fixed at no charge. I forgot to ask for a copy of the repaired map at the time, which he is now refusing to release.

This builder:

1. Over promised and underdelivered performance on a very expensive build. $8,300 for a 106 stroker with stock cylinders, supposed to be 115-120 tq/hp minimum. Delivered with 111 tq and then changed variables on the next dyno run to give me a run showing 117tq/108hp. I could have done a lot better for the price. Granted, the bike runs well, but not $8,300 well.

2. Delivered an oil guzzler (2 qts to Sturgis from CA), and denies it (effectively calling me a liar, saying he couldn't find any evidence of oil use in his shop). Like I make this up? He was surprised when I asked about SYN3 in the crank, which he used for break-in. He said no way he would do that until I pointed to the SYN3 on my invoice. He said that shouldn't have happened and that it was a mistake. I don't know if this is why it's using so much oil from the get go, but HIS response (BEFORE he realized he did it) was that you should never break an engine in with synthetic.

3. Not a man of his word. Agreed to provide an editable copy of my map with the build. The only map I have is the flawed map from original delivery.

I owe this man NOTHING. He has been paid in full. I came through with my part 100%.

My experience with Geoff Gaites at Cycle Doctor in Costa Mesa has been very frustrating. In my opinion he's moody, not a man of his word, and very immature.

Thanks for your posts of support. There should be a law forbidding this, and/or an easier way to hold someone like this accountable. Now I need to spend a ton of time and energy dealing with this guy in small claims court. At least I can warn others in the interim.

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#13 ·
You should be able to get your map . It isn't right to keep something you paid for. It should just be a simple e mail .
As changing variables on the dyno run, to show more power?
The only way to show more power on the same run is to look at a diff correction factor. Or if the speedo wasn't re calibrated to show it pull out in the high rpms . Mph or time will show more hp if your only getting the graph to show to say 5700 rpms with the stock speedo cal.
In other words ... You have to re calibrate the speedo to think it is running say 80 mph when it is actually running 120 mph. This way you can see the rpm graph go all the way to 6200 or what ever rpm you need to go to until it stops making hp.
So if your first graph went to say 5700 rpms and you made 115 hp but it was still climbing ? You couldn't see it. Re calibrate the speedo and now it will show on the graph to say 6200 rpms . And now you see it really made 117 hp the first time .
I can't understand why he wouldn't send a map . But your numbers don't sound bad . And the 106 S&S motors were known to burn oil and scuff pistons and cylinders . Mine always drank a little oil.
Autoworker's was scuffed at 1000 miles or so .
Still got mine on the shelf though .
 
#14 ·
Might be in the same boat myself , but time will only tell and we will see if Skips Cycle in Winchester will deliver. They have already agreed to tune the bike again at no charge.
 
#15 · (Edited)
Stroker...

Yes.. changed dyno run to show more power. Yeah, the original numbers aren't that bad. BUT... I had other choices at the $8,300 price point. He made large promises to get me in the door and bite on his big numbers hook for big $$$.

After giving me the 111tq dyno sheet, Geoff said he would give me a dyno sheet with larger numbers "for bragging rights" if I wanted, but it wouldn't mean anything. I think it was mainly the difference between a 5th gear run (which he originally gave me) and the 6th gear run.

AFTER the build, he said the numbers are meaningless and he could make them show anything he wanted to. BEFORE the build he did a great job of selling me his big number claims.

I think the deal with him is..... when you're BUYING tq from him, the numbers are VERY important. After delivery and payment, the numbers are irrelavant.

For the record, I'm not all that unhappy with the performance of the bike. However, I would NOT have paid $8,300 for this much tq/hp. Basically, I was ripped off on the tq/$$ paid and now to add insult to injury I need to pay another tuner for a map I can use.


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#16 ·
I see no reason not to give someone the map and have no problem doing so when someone asks, many bring their thumb drive and it takes less than a minute to save it.
Now, for the other side of the coin, if you get that map and make a change you think is correct and load it in your bike then you are now to blame if things don't work out or damage occurs. If you feel confident enough to make any map changes then you should also feel confident enough to do the entire tune or you shouldn't mess with it.
What exactly is it you want to adjust?
 
#17 · (Edited)
Bob,

Thanks for your reply. I basically have a vehicle that canNOT be adjusted whatsoever until I have a complete new map built for this bike.

I don't know where you're going with your question, but at this point it's irrelevant. I couldn't take my bike to YOU or ANY OTHER TUNER in the world for the slightest adjustment. My (MY!) bike is locked! WTF?!!! WHO WOULD DO THAT TO ANOTHER RIDER?? If I change intake, exhaust, any number of items, I'm completely locked out UNTIL I pay for ANOTHER complete map.

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#18 ·
if you change a component, you have to get a new map anyways. BUT, the map you paid for is yours and should not be locked. the only reason i can imagine for giving you a locked map is to prevent others from seeing his inability to tune.
 
#19 ·
I think there is a little confusion. I believe the "locked" reference is to what the TTS tuning software does to the ECM after using the newer TTS. It "locks" the ECM so that even the dealer can not get into it and make changes, only the TTS software with the "Key" can make future changes.

Having the custom map is handy for many reasons. Even if you change a single components and need to retune it, it still is a better starting point than a base map. Not to mention in the event of a ECM failure on a trip, albeit unlikely, having the custom map to reload after replacing the ECM would be vital.
 
#23 ·
Have to ask What Type of adjustments that need to be made?
Sounds Like Minor Fine tuning?
Or looking to make (minor) Modifications to the initial Build?
Well aware that none can be made in its present state.
Yes, both.

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#21 ·
I agree with the fact that, the only reason why a tuner would not want to give you a copy is, they don't want you to see what little was done. I always open my "retrieved" folders when I'm looking for a good laugh. I've seen "5-hour maps" that I could have done in 20 minutes.

Not giving a customer a map would be like buying a song on iTunes and not being able to sync it to your phone or iPod.

I also don't agree with inconsistent tuning practices. There are PLENTY of tricks that can be played on the dyno. I'm also not a fan of 5th gear pulls. 6th gear pulls make me laugh.

An air-cooled twin, in 5th @ 6200, will be 140mph. I've never even done a 6th WOT pull. It's not realistic and it's not good for most tires. I won't exceed the tire's speed rating unless the customer wants me to.

The correction factor and gear selection alone can make a significant difference in calculated power.
 
#22 ·
I also don't agree with inconsistent tuning practices. There are PLENTY of tricks that can be played on the dyno. I'm also not a fan of 5th gear pulls. 6th gear pulls make me laugh.
So you do pulls in what gear?
1:1 ratio . If that is 5 th then use 5th if that is 6 th use 6 th.
4 th gear pulls make me laugh.
10 sec max at 162 mph dosent hurt a tire . Nothing like 10 min at 80 mph would do.
Common sense and repeatable procedures .
 
#28 · (Edited)
I do fourth and/or fifth gear pulls. Whatever they want. Most of my customers will admit they won't be going 140 or 160 mph anytime soon. The fork mounted fairings and windshields, that most of these bikes have, make traveling at those speeds dangerous or impossible.

If someone is cruising along in 6th gear, and decides to open it up, I'd recommend to not go WOT in 6th but downshift and you'll go faster. Common sense tells me to downshift and I consider repeatable procedure to be something that the customer customer might actually do(e.g. real-world riding). 99% of most riders will spend 99% of their time between 0-120 mph.

The transmission gear ratio isn't as important when comparing numbers as the overall gear ratio. Even though a cruise-drive still has a 1:1 in 6th, 5th gear has almost the same overall ratio as a 5-speed in 5th. The important thing is the relationship between the engine and the rear wheel, not the mainshaft and countershaft.

If people start flying by me on the highway on Street Glides and Ultras at 150, I'll start giving 6th gear pulls. If we're talking about something like an 1125R, I'll run up to 160 or higher. Because the bike can, and might, go that fast. Just because a bike can go 140+ on the dyno, doesn't mean it can, or ever will, go that fast.

If I had U-rated tires(124mph), I wouldn't be doing 140+ very often. At 140+, you're on borrowed time. The only H-D that would have a chance, at that speed, would be the FLT's. The fairing is a bit bulky but at least it's frame-mounted.
 
#24 ·
This is an interesting thread.

While I agree that paying for the tune should certainly entitle you to the map for reloading in the cases mentioned above, I can also see the point that you paid for a service and the tuner would not want to be responsible for HIS tune if it were modified.

I relate this to a situation I have seen many times where an architect pays an engineer to design a building and then decides on a subsequent project to use some of the engineer's details without permission or paying for design on that subsequent building. Who knows if the architect interprets the intent of those details correctly or not (usually not) but is certainly an unethical practice. Another unethical practice is for someone to generate a set of design documents and ask an engineer to put his seal on it as if he did the design. In order to "check" the design, the same process of designing the entire structure still needs to be done so you pay the same for the "seal" as for the complete design. Most people don't understand this and think its a rip off.

How I relate this here is that making one simple modification to the components might not equate to a minor tuning change and probably would best be handled with a complete re-tune.

All that said, I agree that the guy should give you the map with a disclaimer that once modified it is no longer HIS map.
 
#25 ·
Makes sense G man
Here is what we don't like to see..
Customer gets a nice looking tune . Dyno sheet looks good , and he is happy with it. Now being a forum guy he posts his sheet , or has the tuner post it for him.
The next thing you know half a dozen guys are pm-ing him wanting the map for their build.
If they get a hold of me and ask me what to do? I say it is your map , do what you want with it. Just remember you paid for it.
The thing is some of these builds don't even come close to matching their build.
Then you got other tuners trying to get copy's of a map , just to try and figure out what / how it's done .
 
#29 ·
I guess you have diff customers than I do.
My customers want to know what there actual hp is .
Most are informed enough that they know the diff.
They also realize that 10 sec at 162 mph on the dyno isn't going to hurt a tire.
 
#47 ·
I don't consider the exaggerated numbers to be actual. Theoretical would be a better word. The average guy walking in the door doesn't know that gear ratio will affect calculated HP. They just want to know how much it has and they want to have more than their buddie's bike.

I've shown many customers two WOT pulls on the same bike, taken seconds apart, in two different gears. Most people had no clue. Most people also don't know what a correction factor is, until you explain it to them.

I had a customer show me an internet thread containing a 6th gear pull with a 9% CF on a 103 STG1. It was mildly amusing. There was also an aftermarket shop in the area using a dollar-store dyno and they had a 10% CF locked in. They couldn't tune a bike to save their life, but they dyno pumped out some impressive numbers.

The typical dyno run sheet doesn't show gear ratio and most people using 6th gear won't tell their customers they did it. I've been asking customers lately if they want a 6th gear pull. I explain the computer will calculate a little more HP and the bike will hit 160 on the dyno. The looks they give you are amusing.

Most people are "informed enough" to downshift if they're looking to accelerate quickly at highway speeds, which makes WOT in 6th a tad unrealistic. It's just a little more smoke and mirrors to "prove" how well the bike runs. You might as well take the air filter off and swing the fans around to pack a little more air into the manifold while you're at it.

On topic, I don't see why this jackwagon would refuse to cough the map up after some prodding. I don't force my customers to take a copy of the map, but all they have to do is ask and I'll
put it on a thumb or email it. I don't like the idea of someone giving it to their buddy or sending it to "Internet friends" either, but having satisfied customers is more important to me. Shady mechanics/tuners won't stay in one area for long doing stuff like that.
 
#30 ·
I have a few questions:

Who is the regulatory body that this CA shop would fear most? Can he be made to release my map by one of these agencies/regulators? Surely in the vehicle repair business there's a strong arm that protects consumers from dickwads like this?


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#33 · (Edited)
Ha! G-Man.. funny. :beatdh:

I've tried everything with this guy. He readily admits about himself: "I don't play well with others", so it's nearly impossible (beyond my capabilities anyway) to "reason" with him.

Just out of curiosity, what has he stated as his reason for not releasing the map to you?

Like a few have stated, he doesn't want others to re-use his map on another bike with a similar build. Ironic, in that he preached the uniqueness of every map that won't work on another identical build.

Was there any written agreement about the map custody when you went in for the tune?

Nothing written, but there was a focused discussion on release of the map, which he agreed to --- as evidenced by the fact that when I picked up my bike he gave me the file in editable format.

Where this went off track was when I brought it back for a re-tune because it didn't feel right in a few places (stumbled off idle for example). Turns out there was a bad sensor that he overlooked during the first tune. He then replaced the sensor, and re-tuned it at no charge. I didn't ask for the map copy at that time. Now he says I have everything I paid for -- I guess he thinks because he didn't charge for the 2nd tune that he doesn't have to stand by his word to leave me with an editable map. It's just a loop hole in his mind, to get him out of our original agreement...... which he didn't really want to do in the first place.


Did I understand correctly that you have a copy of the map that can be reloaded as-is in case of emergency but is just not able to be viewed/edited? Is this what was promised in the agreement?

Yes I have it to re-load (provided I haven't changed anything on MY bike!), and no that was NOT what was promised in our agreement.

This was all set UP FRONT. I enjoy working and modifying my bike. There is NO WAY that I would have spent $8,300 with a shop for a build and NOT have it fully understood that I get the map in editable form. No way, I wouldn't do it.

I paid for a TTS tuned build WITH editable map. That's what I purchased, and now he's reneging on his word. I have no patience, you are absolutely correct, for a man who is not a man of his word. Period.



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#37 ·
So you have a MTE and a mt8 or mt7?
What version software are YOU going to use ?
So if you have a mt 7 or mt8 that you can edit ( from the first tune)?
I don't think he is scared of anyone seeing his map.
If you want I will take a look at your map and see what I can do.
Look at it this way. The bike probably needs tuned again anyway, and it sounds like he isn't the one to do it. At this point his POS map is worthless . Chances are another tuner would start with another cal anyway. And it has to be tuned everywhere , so it dosent really matter .
Sorry Bouytn about spelling and grammar :harhar:
 
#34 ·
Wow! The whole situation stinks. I would think since this guy did the build and the tune and seems to have gotten pretty good money for doing it, he would be a bit more forthcoming. I definitely feel for you on this one.

I hope you get it worked out somehow.
 
#36 ·
Maybe it's time to call it a loss and cut your ties to Geoff Gaites at Cycle Doctor in Costa Mesa. Next time instead of going to Geoff Gaites at Cycle Doctor in Costa Mesa find another good indy that is more reputable than Geoff Gaites at Cycle Doctor in Costa Mesa. It seems going back to Geoff Gaites at Cycle Doctor in Costa Mesa would not be a good idea as there may be bad blood between you and Geoff Gaites at Cycle Doctor in Costa Mesa.

Good luck!

rkc
 
#39 ·
I'd put big lettered signs (or wrap) in (on) your car stating what kind of business he runs, and park it across the street from his place of business. See how that works out for him. But as King Cole said "find another good indy that is more reputable than Geoff Gaites at Cycle Doctor in Costa Mesa"
 
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