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Old 03-06-2008, 08:02 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Dyno adjustment for altitude

I recently did some minor mods to my bike (sig) and the dyno sheet from the tune hit a little better than I had hoped. (soon to be posted)
The tuner added a note as to what my dyno results would be at sea level. Is there a fixed ratio for altitude differences, I'm at 6200.
I find it hard to understand a difference of 12hp and 14ft/lb between my altitude and sea level.
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Old 03-06-2008, 11:52 AM   #2 (permalink)
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<<I find it hard to understand a difference of 12hp and 14ft/lb between my altitude and sea level.>>

There will be a huge difference in actual (uncorrected) power from your elevation at 6200ft and sea level. Over 20%.

At sea level standard air pressure is 29.92 in hg at your elevation 6200 the standard air pressure drops down to around 23.8 in hg. That thin air has a huge negative effect on power. The SAE correction factor you would use at your altitude with the above pressures would be 1.27, assuming equal temps.

Put it another way a guy has a 9.8:1 cr build with a tw37 cam. At sea level his compression will read around 187psi. Drive that same bike up to your altitude and it will crank only around 150psi on the same gauge. A lot less compression...a lot less power.
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Old 03-06-2008, 10:22 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ejk_dyna View Post
There will be a huge difference in actual (uncorrected) power from your elevation at 6200ft and sea level. Over 20%.

At sea level standard air pressure is 29.92 in hg at your elevation 6200 the standard air pressure drops down to around 23.8 in hg. That thin air has a huge negative effect on power. The SAE correction factor you would use at your altitude with the above pressures would be 1.27, assuming equal temps.

Put it another way a guy has a 9.8:1 cr build with a tw37 cam. At sea level his compression will read around 187psi. Drive that same bike up to your altitude and it will crank only around 150psi on the same gauge. A lot less compression...a lot less power.
I am surprised by such a difference in performance. You mention a 20% difference which is pretty close to what was given me.

Some background is the build you see in the sig. Just had the cams and pipes done along with the tune last week. I did my homework and decided that the 26h and D&D would get me about 85/95 with no headwork. That is all I was seeking. I was not thinking about local altitude at all.

My dyno sheet came back with 86.65hp and 96.94tq. Better than expected and good to see, then I notice the note that says the sea level equivalent is 99.9hp and 111.5tq.

I have total confidence in my tuner and though I wasn't in the room, I was in the front office listening when my bike was getting tuned and it sounded goooood.

The 20 miles I have had a chance to ride put a big smile on my face. I am completely happy with everything on the bike. I just have a hard time believing that with the mild mods I did could produce those numbers.
Not bitching, just trying to understand. What ever it is I got, it seems to be what I was looking for. I'll know more Sat.
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Old 03-06-2008, 10:41 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Newhawk, I live outside Denver and I bumped my cr to 11.5:1 for this very reason. No it did not make up for the loss of power due to altitude but I am sure it did help. I am not sure but I thought the dyno would correct for the altitude.

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Old 03-07-2008, 01:34 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NewHawk View Post
My dyno sheet came back with 86.65hp and 96.94tq. Better than expected and good to see, then I notice the note that says the sea level equivalent is 99.9hp and 111.5tq.
My guess is your dyno is already in SAE, which has the corrections for altitude. Thus his note with the high numbers has the altitude correction factored in twice.
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Old 03-07-2008, 11:43 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by ToBeFrank View Post
My guess is your dyno is already in SAE, which has the corrections for altitude. Thus his note with the high numbers has the altitude correction factored in twice.
That is more like what I was thinking. Like I said, I didn't understand how such a mild mod could do what was represented. However, if I'm actually getting about 20% less than the dyno sheet showed because of the altitude here the ride still makes me smile compared to the stage 1 I've been running for the first 6000 miles.
Looking forward to seeing if I can feel the difference from riding here in the mountains and when I go to OR and CA next summer.
Anything I should be aware of? With the thicker air at sea level will I be running too lean?
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Old 03-10-2008, 07:04 PM   #7 (permalink)
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If you have fuel injection no. The ecm will correct for air density. With a carb yes, it will be lean at sea level.
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Old 03-11-2008, 12:17 PM   #8 (permalink)
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<<There will be a huge difference in actual (uncorrected) power from your elevation at 6200ft and sea level. Over 20%.>>

If the dyno sheet he gave you 86hp/96tq says SAE or STD corrected than these numbers have already been adjusted to account for the thin air. If it says "Uncorrected or Actual" then your SAE would be much higher.

Given your build...the 86/96 run most likely is in SAE or STD already.
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Old 03-11-2008, 12:53 PM   #9 (permalink)
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post the sheet
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Old 03-11-2008, 09:11 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Here it is.
Attached Images
File Type: gif dyno1.gif (222.7 KB, 53 views)
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Old 03-11-2008, 09:15 PM   #11 (permalink)
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looks good! Congrats
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Old 03-12-2008, 08:06 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Hey NewHawk that is a pretty good looking graph. Nice smooth arcing torque curve. Looks like it's tuned well.

You will certainly feel the added power when down at sea level especially if it's a cool dry morning.

If he saved the dyno run in his computer, your tuner can print that exact same dyno run in "actual" or in other words, "uncorrected". He just has to change the setting before he prints it out. Then you could compare the SAE #s to what it was actually giving you under those high altitude conditions.

Next you could compare the difference in the SAE to Uncorrected/Actual. That is how many HP you will gain at sea level if the same temp/humidity/pressure existed.

This making any sense?

SAE is The Society Of Automotive Engineers. They set all sorts of standards so testing can be reliable and repeatable. They have an agreed upon correction factor or algorithm to take into consideration, how good or how bad the air is, for making power. STD is yet another method to a similar end(not sure where it came from but it is used quite frequently). The whole idea of either of those correction factors is to allow better comparison from place to place or from time to time or from one weather condition to another.

The "Actual" power an engine will produce will vary with the weather. Hot/humid/low barometric pressure days are poor for power because there are not as many oxygen molecules in a cubic inch of air. As you know, high altitude = low barometric pressure.

When you run on a dyno in less than favorable conditions as I have just described, the SAE & the STD version of the graph will add power by a factoring the actual times 1.xx (maybe 1.05 for example). The xx being a result of the computer program sensing the run/weather conditions at that moment and adding x% due to the lousy (for power) air (weather) in the dyno room. Don't want to penalize the rating of the engine just because we are giving it bad air.

When you do a dyno run in extra good conditions, cool,dry,high pressure the SAE computer program will have a correction factor of o.xx (maybe 0.95 for example) Taking away x% because the air in there is better than the agreed upon standard. In other words that air has way more oxygen molecules than the hot/humid/ low pressure air and the engine will make a lot more power but we don't want to give credit (HP) to the engine for that. The extra power was due only to the better air so the correction will be to remove some from the actual to get the SAE rating.

SEA and STD both take weather conditions into consideration while "Actual" or "Uncorrected"(same thing) do not.

Last thing is to know that the SAE #s are roughly 4% smaller than STD #s are.

Now what puzzles me is the handwritten #s. SAE and STD are both designed to be pretty close to an average day at near sea level. You can look up the exact conditions anywhere. The puzzle is the printout clearly shows SAE, which means that is what you should see if you were running in that theoretical average weather day. That's the whole idea of having a standard, so we can test at altitude or at sea level, hot or cold day, wet or dry, and get a usable number.

Alls I can say is
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Old 03-12-2008, 09:31 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by jerry34208 View Post
Hey NewHawk that is a pretty good looking graph. Nice smooth arcing torque curve. Looks like it's tuned well.

.....

This making any sense?
Thanks and yes it does make sense.

I'm not sure who wrote the sea leval (had to laugh at the spelling) numbers. (I guess I should ask but haven't yet.)
I had an Indy do the work and had the dyno included in the mods. Tuning was done by a third party.
Before ever committing to anything I visited with the tuner and felt I couldn't go wrong there. I went with the direct link setup.
When checking on the progress of my work I was told the bike was at the tuners, I went over there and though I didn't ask to watch I did get to listen in for about fifteen minutes and knew it wasn't the same bike I had a week before.
Right now the numbers don't mean as much as the ride I have now.
It is what I was looking for and I think it will fit my riding style just fine.

Thanks for everyones input.
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Old 03-13-2008, 09:09 PM   #14 (permalink)
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[quote=NewHawk;1315998] it wasn't the same bike I had a week before.
Right now the numbers don't mean as much as the ride I have now.
It is what I was looking for and I think it will fit my riding style just fine.QUOTE]

You're a wise man. Ride it & smile! You can't ride "the numbers" anyway.
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Old 03-15-2008, 11:40 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Hi guys, thought I might jump on the thread since I recently tuned NewHawk's bike at my shop here in Colorado Springs using Direct Link and my Dynojet 250 LC dyno.

As one might have thought, the Dynojet stack and Winpep software should compensate for altitude and uncorrected and corrected numbers at 6200 ft but it doesn't work properly. I don't know who wrote the numbers on top of your dyno sheet NewHawk, but I stand behind the numbers @ sea level so let me explain:

Several years ago when I opened my Tuning Shop here in the springs I found my dyno numbers to be reading low, even when using the Dynojet correction factors on my bike and others. After talking with Dynojet at their Research Center in Montana I was told to manually compute my numbers x .15 for sea level. I then compared my numbers with Joe's in NY, Rob's Dyno, and a host of my other friends who also have Tuning Centers like mine. The numbers came within a HP or two to theirs after doing the math.

Dyno Tuning at this elevation has its may challenges but is a very good investment considering the HP and TQ gains up here and @ sea level.

NewHawk, I appreciate your business and look forward in keeping you as a valued customer.

Cheers,
Frank
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