V-Twin Forum banner

Cam chain tensioner failure survey

432K views 687 replies 357 participants last post by  <G Man> 
#1 ·
I would be really interested on who has actually had a cam chain tensioner failure, what year of bike and how many miles. Also was it covered under warranty. It does not have to be a catastrophic failure can include worn beyond factory specs.

It would be interesting to see if there is a pattern that developes.

I had a 2003 Ultra with 40,000 miles that was beyond factory specs and replaced under extended warranty in 2005.

Doug
 
#402 · (Edited)
Changed my cam chain tensioners at 32,178 miles. The inside tensioner was worn throught to the metallic holder. The outside tensioner was worn about 50%.
The only reason I was not caught out on the road somewhere is because I heard about the wear factor on one of "our" Harley Davidson forum.
The bike is a 2001 RK.
The appropriate parts were replaced on February of 2010.
 
#403 ·
Cam Chain Failure

I have 42,000 miles on my 05 Road King Custom. I had oil leak and found the primary was leaking the shop I use also checked the cam and saw it was worn beyond factory specs so I changed it. I went with the gear driven rather than using the chain again. My shop said they see most chain driven cam failure at around 45,000 miles or more. I have done all my scheduled maintenince but have not used a HD dealer. I have prefered a local owned shop that is freindlier and not as costly.
 
#404 ·
When I converted to gear drive at 35K, on my 2000, the tensioner shoes where about half worn. I had less than .0015 runout on the pinion shaft. This along with chain quality may have something to do with premature wear.
 
#405 ·
My front shoe @50,000KM/32,000M, suprisingly back was about only half that wear, Amsoil or Redline and always changed a little on the early side.


 
#406 ·
2009 ultra failed @ 28,000
Question this; thread has 71437 veiws and 405 posts.
whats that mean ? that Im just one of a very small percent who have had this problem?
If thats the case then HD isnt going to change a thing and cam shoes is part of regular
maintanance for mileage @ ???
 
#411 ·
Are we seeing an 09 tensioners failure at 28000....hard to believe...
 
#408 ·
I too switched to the hydraulic cam plate using the Herko kit on my 04' RKC with 24,000 miles. Only had 15-20% wear on the tensioners. It appears that they were good for at least another 25,000 or more but who can tell for sure. No worries now and a better oil pump, and 21n cams. Great kit from Herko!
 
#409 ·
2000 Softail Standard

I had about 10 or 12 thousand miles on my FXST when I did a big bore kit & the tensioners were replaced. At about 48,000 mine blew up, requiring much more than if I'd changed them out earlier----new oil pump etc.
I traded that bike in on a 2011 Road Glide Ultra in October.
My understanding is that the tensioner issues have gone away with these new model bikes----is that correct?
 
#410 ·
"Looked Good" is the operative word. They can look good, and be very thick showing little wear. The thing is that little wear sometimes seems to be small particles of tensioner shoe floating about and hopefully being caught by the oil filter....after they go through the oil pump.

The newer hydraulic style shoes are made from a different material and I have not read, or heard about anyone having any flaking problems with the hydraulic style shoes. I have seen pictures of a pair with around 30K on them that showed some slight wear....no evidence of flaking.
 
#413 ·
I had a 2006 Low Ryder that jumped time right around 40,000 miles. Luckily, it was parked in my garage at the time, 2 days after i got back from a 1500 mile road trip.

I just replaced the tensioners in my 08 103ci, before they wore out 100s of miles from home.
 
#417 ·
Bob,

No. All Twin Cams from 2007 onward use the roller chain/hydraulic tensioner shoe system. In other words, all TC 96s have the new system in them with the white composite shoes, which will age out to a darker hue. The only exception was the TC 88 2006 Dyna, which introduced the new setup.

I did the hydraulic tensioner/roller chain conversion at about 35,000 miles on my 2005 Road King using the Andrews N21 conversion cams. I now have 91,000 miles on the bike. No problems. I checked the shoes at about 75,000 miles before I left for Sturgis a couple of years ago and there was no wear to speak of. I also installed new HD cam bearings in the case. The only thing I wished I'd done differently is to install new Harley lifters. I thought I'd be taking the engine apart by now and would replace them then. But the engine is still strong and I'm hoping to get about 120,000 miles out of her before I do a rebuild. I'm just worrying that the original lifters may go before then because I'm hearing a little tapping that lasts about a second after cold startup.

If you want, go with gears, but many gear jobs whine horribly. The roller chain conversion is much simpler and can be done by anybody who has moderate wrench skills with the minimum of special tools and no fussing around with roller and ball bearings. Plus you get a beefier oil pump in the bargain.
 
#419 ·
Not sure who you're directing the comment to, but the tensioner shoe in the pic looks like the hydraulic shoe. They start out white but eventually stain the color you're looking at. The older silent chain spring-loaded shoes started out orange as far as I know. With the wear shown in the photo you could probably go at least 100,000 miles without changing them out unless you've gone to high-lift cams and heavy duty valve springs, then they won't last as long.
 
#421 ·
I have an 2002 FLHR and just took it in for a loud whinnig noise coming from the cam case. The dealership says one of the camchain tensioners is gone and the chain is riding on metal. Bike has 22,000 miles on it and they want $2000 for the repair and upgrade to the hydrolic tensioners which also means a new oil pump. They also want to completley flush all the oil lines. I almost choked when i heard this. I find it rediculous that an internal engine part has no mention of scheduled maintenance anywhere in the shop manual or owners manual and that it failed at 22,000. I dont know if i should go ahead with their recomendation or if i should just have them replace the shoes with oem and save more than a grand. Part of me thinks their just trying to upsell parts and loads of labor. Bike is pretty much stock except for pipes and air cleaner. I bought it in 04 with 3500 miles on it because i was sick of paying for repairs on my ironhead sporty. Seems like an unbeliveable bad design to have a chain tensioned witha piece of plastic!
 
#423 · (Edited)
I have an 2002 FLHR and just took it in for a loud whinnig noise coming from the cam case. The dealership says one of the camchain tensioners is gone and the chain is riding on metal. Bike has 22,000 miles on it and they want $2000 for the repair!
Does it still have the stock cams? Just trying to figure out if there's a connection between non-standard cams and shorter shoe life.
My stock ones are still fine at 47,000 miles; less than half worn.

As far as the repairs are concerned, it depends on how much unexpected material ended up inside your engine. I don't know if they showed you the worn out shoe, but if there is metal missing, then that's inside your motor somewhere, and flushing the oil lines isn't going to remove it. Are they planning to remove the oil pan, and clean that out as well?
My guess is that if it only just reached the metal, and there's next to nothing worn from the shoe support, then that's all the metal that's in your system, plus some wear on the silent chain. It should be fine particles only, some of which will be in the filter, as fine particles are designed to be carried in the oil, and filtered out. There's a magnetic plug on the oil pan, I think. Was that heavily contaminated with swarf?
If not, you might be OK.
Cutting open the oil filter and seeing what's in there might give you some more clues.
Very dispersed and fine metal particles might not do too much damage, as the lubrication system is designed to deal with them. Big lumps like a bearing failure are another matter, but I suspect in this case, you might just be OK, especially if you got it to the shop very soon after the shoe material ran out of luck.
If it was me, I'd be tempted to do the cheap repair, keep the stock cam plate, and replace the shoes, and then sell it (but not to your best buddy).
If you like the bike, same applies, but change the oil at 500 miles, and if there are loads of iron filings in there, sell it, quick.
I assume the bike's in bits at the dealer, so your options of trying somewhere else are limited...?
 
#424 ·
The bike does still have the stock cams in it and as soon as it started making the noise like siren, i stopped riding it. Maybe 25 miles on it after the noise started just getting it to the dealership. Found out that the hydrolic conversion kit costs no more than $430 and im having a hard time beliving that its gonna take the shop 15 or 16 hours of labor, at $100 per hour, to install the kit. I realize that there will be other small parts such as oring and gaskets but i stll think parts overall wont cost more than $600 and that still means 14 hours of labor. If I have to take somewhere else, im only out 80 bucks for the diag. Im thinking that the cheapest way to go is to have them just replace the shoe with an oem spring style tensioner, put it back together and then change the oil every 500 miles for the next two or three oil changes. Im thinkin that I could then get almost 10k for it on a trade and then just get a newer bike but it would have to be an 07 or later or Im just gonna have the same crappy setup that my 02 has. Seems to me that $2000 should get me new cams that are gear driven altogether.
 
#427 ·
Seems to me that $2000 should get me new cams that are gear driven altogether.
$2K is excessive, and yes you could likely get a gear drive installed for less than that. I recall that replacing worn out tensioners in my 2006 with the Hydraulic kit cost around $1100 in Hot Springs HD 2 years ago.

Here's where there may be a difference (other than that stuff they said about flushing your oil lines)..... If they're planning to install the hydraulic kit with your stock pushrods in place, the job is far more labor intensive as they have to open up the top of the engine. They may know this, but aren't telling you. It would save a lot in labor costs to buy adjustable pushrods with the hydraulic kit... then they only open up the cam cover, cut the old pushrods out, and put the new adjustables in. No need for the extra work to get the solid pushrods out. Costs a little more in parts, but a lot less in labor.

If you're planning to keep this bike long term, and put more miles on it, do not put new stock spring tensioners back in. You're only paying good money for crap. If your goal is just to sell the bike and get a new one (2007+) then the stock spring tensioners are the cheapest solution to make the bike road worthy for selling.
 
#425 ·
That's bad luck, and shows that whatever it is leads to premature wear, it's not the cams.
As the dealer has it, and you're pretty much tied to them for now, how about getting them to give you a detailed breakdown of the costs, and a similar breakdown of costs to just replace the shoes?
Problem is, having trawled through a few previous posts, somebody in a similar position to you killed the motor as soon as the noise started, but still found the pump and various other parts full of bits of tensioner. Couple of pages back I think...
Maybe a lot of their cost is the clean-up job?
 
#426 ·
The base-cost from most dealers around here is $500 to just even enter the cam chest and do anything. They are quoting like $750 for a spring tensioner shoe replacement and around $1200 for the hydraulic kit. Which is about 1/2 what mklin got quoted. I wonder if it is at that same Colorado stealership that told me a rear tire replacement was a 4-hour job? I don't mean a 4-hour wait...I mean 4-hours in labor. Then....I took it across the street where the Honda Shop was more than happy to install it in less than an hour.

U ARE BEING SCREWED! The oil filter should have caught anything that may have got past the pump, since the TC filters the oil before it enters the engine. If you still have the same oil pressure as before, it's likely the pump is not damaged.

I do not think the motor is trashed and I think you will be fine with a replacement set of spring tensioners and a good case flushing. I have seen more than one in the shop with the chain running on the metal base of the shoe and they are still running today on replacement shoes, or retrofitted with the hydraulic kit. I don't think you need to throw the bike away. These old crappy orange spring tensioners flake and transmit little shards of particles that get caught in the filter in normal wear from the first day it left the factory.

I think you can find somebody that will install either the hydraulic conversion kit....or for gods sake, even a set of gears for less than $2000.
 
#428 · (Edited)
Trumpeter's numbers sound more like what I think is still pretty common around here. A friend of mine recently got a quote of $600-$700 for spring tensioner replacement and between $1100 and $1200 for the hydraulic upgrade at a Memphis dealership. In my humble opinion...I would not waste my time on another set of spring tensioners. If you plan to keep the bike, find another dealer, or an Indy that will do the hydraulic upgrade for a fair price and be done with it.

I ride all over this country and there are big differences among dealers. Some will not fool with a bike over 10-years old and then there are some like the one I mentioned above that wants $500 for a friggin' rear tire. They have a "book" just like the auto dealerships do and most of them will charge by the book...some will rob you blind. Throw it on a trailer and take it somewhere else.
 
#429 ·
At 15K I opened the cam case up to look. Both inner and outer tensioners were maybe 20% worn but there were small pieces of plastic "floating" around the bottom of the cam case. I don't want anything loose in my engine. Upgrade done!
 
#430 ·
1200.00 is about right with the cam plate, oil pump upgrade and new cams and push rods, 2000.00 is a screwing
 
#431 ·
Well I just spent the day going around to various dealerships in the Milwaukee area and the difference between them is nothing short of astounding. I asked the first dealer that has my bike to give me a written printout detailing where exactly my $2000 was going to be spent. When I looked at it, they were trying to sell me new cams and lifters which its my understanding that there is no reason to replace those. When I went to the next closest dealer and talked to them, thier quote was $1300 with the difference in price being the fact that they were not going to sell me new cams and lifters. That $1300 includes the hydrolic conversion in addition to dropping the oil pan and flushing all the oil lines. They agreed that replacing the cams and lifters is 100% unnesscesary. They also told me that they would take my 02 in trade as is and put me on a 09 Street Glide with a 103inch kit for around $11K. I dont really want to go in the hole another 11k which would give me a payment of about $280/month for the next 6 years so I'm probably gonna have dealer number 2 fix it for the $1300. I also called some independant shops and their price for the conversion was the same $1300 quoted to me at dealer 2. Still find it crazy that i hafta do this kind of repair in the first place with only 22k on the bike but seeing that my only options are fix it, junk it or trade it, im going to go the fix it route and just keep it long term as this is the most economical way to go. Dealer number 1 wanted $900 to put the crappy spring tensoiner style in, with no oil line flushing and no checking to see if theres little bits of plastic in my system somewhere. Who in the world would spend $900 to get the same junk that failed in the first place. The world is full of dumbasses and I'm not one of them. Im gonna pick it up on mon with a trailer and take it dealer 2. The only cost im out is $80 for the diag at dealer 1 but seeing that dealer 2 is gonna save me $700 and not try to sell me parts and labor I dont need, its worth the headache. Anybody else in the same boat that im in, make sure you call around because not all shops are created equal. Dealer 1 tried to tell me that as long as they were gonna replace the cams that I should go with performance cams but if i did that , it would add even another $1000 so they could remap the EFI and Dyno it. Sounds great if you want to spend $3000! Like I said, it seems that they just want to sell me a bunch of stuff I dont need. They think that everyone who rides a Harley has more money than they know what to do with. If I had my way, a class action lawsuit would be filed against Harley Davidson so that they recall the spring style tensioners and do the conversion at their cost. After all, if it had been a good design in the first place, they never would have changed it in 07. They changed it because the old style was flawed. They knew it and now so does everyone else who has had to go thru this overly expensive nightmare!
 
#433 ·
If you use the Andrews Cam method of upgrading, which is to use the new HD cam plate, roller chains, sprockets, oil pump and hydraulic lifters, adjustable push rods (saves pulling the tank and valve covers) you will need new cams to form a matchup between the case bearings and the new cam plate. I did the conversion myself a few years ago on my 05 Road King at about 32,000 miles and now have almost 95,000 miles and there is almost no wear on the shoes. I think it cost me about $700 to do it myself and I had to buy special tools to do it. It took me 14 hours, but I had never worked on a HD engine before so I took it slow and meticulous the whole way. A good tech with lots of experience could probably do it in 8 hours easily.

Harley has a hydraulic conversion system that will allow you to use the old cams, but I never saw the sense in it. I'd rather have Andrews 21ns than the stock cams because they give you a much better torque curve than stock and require no alteration in your tuning.
 
#441 ·
Harley has a hydraulic conversion system that will allow you to use the old cams, but I never saw the sense in it. I'd rather have Andrews 21ns than the stock cams because they give you a much better torque curve than stock and require no alteration in your tuning.
Amen to that. I changed to S&S 510G cams and ended up with not only a much more responsive bike but also a Harley that sounds like a Harley should. I've been amazed at the number of comments regarding how good my bike sounds.

......22,000 miles isn't a lot, but anything mechanical is subject to failure. Once you upgrade, you should be trouble free for 10's of thousands of miles. Do it right, find an indy that has a good rep and replace everything in the cam chest. SE cam plate w/ hydraulic tensioners, new oil pump, new cams, torrington inner cam bearings, quick adjust PR, and all labor should run around $1,500. You will have a reliable, stronger running bike, worth every penny.
Absolutely. As VT1550 and a few other folks have mentioned, these bikes will go and go, and go. Fix it right and you'll know what you've got. And besides that, this is supposed to be about fun and relaxation, and there's just something about throwing your leg over a bike that you own lock, stock, and barrel.
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top